Your top 5-10 for a novice

I’m a novice at hybridizing and wonder what you would recommend as your top 5-10 for a new guy. I have several more “common” roses from the big box stores, Mr. Lincoln, Ingrid Bergman, Olympiad, Peace, Double Delight and a couple other HT’s. I have a couple of Mr. Moore’s, 1-72-1 and Cal Poly. A couple of Paul Barden’s and Floradora that he gave me. Kim added a few of Mr. Moore’s crested that I’ve budded and seem to be doing okay. I rooted a couple varieties that were behind a furniture store. One of the salemen was loading my truck and he stepped into rose bushes and broke of several canes. I have no idea what they are, but they sure root well.

I have two primary interests. The first is crested and the second is patio roses that I guess are sometimes called mini-flora. I have budgeted about $300-$400 this fall for a purchase from the Antique Rose Emporium in Texas. They have a good selection, but it seems a little overwhelming when looking at their catalog.

So basically, if you had the choice of selecting about a dozen roses, what would you buy?

Congratulations Jeff! I’m glad the crested roses appear to have taken. That’s great! April Mooncrest has been throwing some pretty amazing basals which break into massive sprays at their tips.

If you’re aiming for mini flora and smaller shrubs, traditional shrubs and HTs aren’t going to give you the dwarf, bushy, incessantly flowering plants you’re looking for. Minis are more the way to go. The two which have lived up to their disease resistance recommendations here have been Pink Petticoat and Cal Poly. Both are proving to be incredibly easy to work with, too, producing large hips with decent sized seed. Both are readily available from Burlington. You want multiples of each so you can produce many hips from the same cross without having to wait for the one plant to rebloom. I have four of each in two gallon cans and they’re sucking up most of the pollens I have ready for them. If your Cal Poly rusts, you’re not watering it enough. Bump up the moisture and watch the rust disappear.

Look at Jim’s First Impression. Amazing yellow rose! And, zero prickles so far. This thing is a flowering fool and totally healthy so far here.

I don’t know anything about it other than what HMF says, but Engelmann’s Quest really looks intriguing. F. J.Lindheimer also has a rather intriguing parentage. Gideon Lincecum has an interesting lineage, too. Minnie Bell,

Republic of Texas , Thomas Affleck, also have interesting things behind them, and so far, no one seems to be mining these interesting combinations.

Personally, I didn’t find other things there which would interest me for breeding. Not that some interesting things might not be possible from some of the others, but here, I’ve found using OGRs for the most part, results in some pretty severe foliage issues. For more severe climates, perhaps that would work well, but my season is endless and getting more extreme by the year. They have some interesting older HTs, but most of them have already been bred to death. How can you expect to create something new from the same old, over used ingredients? I avoided Mike Shoup’s creations for which there were no listed parents, and I tried to avoid anything with Austin roses in them as much as possible. In my climate, they want to climb. That’s too counter productive keeping your goals in mind.

I’d think if you concentrated on the really healthy varieties with the better minis, you could afford to throw a Hybrid Tea or floribunda into the mix occasionally without doing any major damage to the line.

Thanks Kim: And thanks again for the cuttings. I hope now I don’t kill them.

Thanks also for the suggestions about new roses. Looking throough catalogs and trying to run them down through HMF is a major task. I’m really looking forward to getting a good sized rose garden going.

I asked for Burlington’s catalog. My budget will definately go further if I don’t have to spend a ton of $$ on shipping.

You’re welcome Jeff. If some don’t make it, there are more! I don’t blame you for not wanting to pay a lot for postage. Talk about wasted money. Burling has a tremendous selection. I think you’ll be mightly impressed!

Hi Jeff,

I don’t think that you’ll get much out of the HT’s that you mentioned, though anything is possible!

One of my best minis for producing minis/minifloras/floribundas is ‘Pearl Sanford’. It is my most productive seed maker - pound for pound. It sets hips with everything and is very “plastic” in that it easily takes on traits of the pollen parent. Germination is excellent and early. Although it has very good powdery mildew resistance, it’s downfall is black spot and downy mildew. If you are ever through Bakersfield in the next few months, I would be happy to give you a breeding sized plant.

I would “second” Kim’s recommendation to use ‘Cal Poly’, and I have not exhausted ‘First Impression’s’ good traits.

Jim: Thanks for the offer.

I kind of agree that the HT’s that I have won’t produce much and have been worked pretty hard. As soon as I see what’s available at Burlington I’ll make my list and take a quick drive.

I don’t know what that particular nursery has but if I were to make a list.

For plants that are easy females both in seed set and in germination. Incantation, Suntan Beatuy, Carefree Beauty, Hot Tamale, and Cal Poly are all good.

For a pollen parent you might want to work with Baby Love.

With cresting in mind you might want to get crested jewel many of the others are sterile or nearly sterile.

Adam, my April Mooncrest (April Moon X MORcrest) is not only fertile both directions, but flowers all spring through fall and is very fragrant. The foliage is quite disease resistant (here, the only place I can test it so far) and it expresses quite a bit of cresting.

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The plant is vigorous and once dried, the anthers release pollen VERY easily. After the hips which aren’t eaten or abort are collected, cuttings will be available to whomever may wish to play with it.

Crested Jewel is (Little Darling X Crested Moss), once flowering and a vigorous climber. It expresses a bit more cresting, but usually loses the cresting to pick up repeat bloom. Breeding past the octopus arms of Little Darling and the rangy habit of Crested Moss (and the black spot!) helps eliminate the crested sepals, too.

Jeff,

If you want to work with classic HT’s and floribundas then toss out your big box plants and buy VID plants from Vintage even if you have to custom order them. I would especially try for Sterling Silver, Fashion, Aloha, Tiffany, Color Magic, Mr. Lincoln, Swarthmore, Oklahoma and Oregold, more or less in that priority order. These are all Fertile Gerties that have the right genes to turn out classic HT’s forever, variations on the theme with no improvements in disease resistance or hardiness but that’s what easy HT’s give you.

If you want to improve things then go for not-so-easy. Start with some of Paul Barden’s nouveau teas like Dragon’s Blood and Won Fang Yon (check Rogue Valley). Try to get your hands on some of Rob Rippetoe’s hybrids which would give you genes for mildew resistance. Ask Kim for a source for Lynnie. Golden Horizons is available from either Burling or Rogue Valley iirc and would make a good adjunct to Cal Poly and First Impression. Try to get a copy of Morsoul, maybe Burling has it. I might even place Morsoul first on the list.

If you ever move someplace temperate where you can select for hardiness then get Folksinger, Illusion, R-15-01, William Baffin and R. virginiana.

If you want to try species with a some chance of success and having traits worth the effort then you might be able to grow R. pisocarpa and R. californica where you are. Kim’s fedtschenkoana hybrids might be an option if you can arrange it.

If you want to an impossible challenge to bang your head on get a copy of R. minutifolia. You are more or less in the right place to try working with it if you can figure out how to keep it alive long enough (mine didn’t survive the flight home from Sacramento).

Burling and Long Ago Roses have Lynnie. Burling doesn’t stock MORsoul. She isn’t interested in stocking Ralph’s weird things as she’ll never sell them. If mine isn’t dead from being buried under the Dianella and Lantana out front, you’re welcome to whatever I can cut from it. I can supply suckers from the “choice selection” of Californica from the Sacremento Historic Cemetery when you’re ready. You’re welcome to any of the OADEFED, DLFED, 1-72-1DLFED, CPDLFED, NCMDLFED you desire. Knowing exactly which one is which of the latter four is the issue as they had to be whacked way back and the specific number tags went out with the trash. I know which is what cross, of those four types, but not necessarily which precise seedling yet. Not all of them have flowered since being moved.

Jeff,

I would agree that First Impression should be on your list. In addition to what have have shown everybody previously paired with Abigail Adams http://www.rosebreeders.org/forum/read.php?2,42369,42369#msg-42369. I was able to get this seedling as well with Everblooming Pillar 124 as a pollen donor. However, I have noted that not many of my seedlings have been mini-flora sized (except when I used her with Abigail Adams). I have been pairing her up mainly with full-sized roses. Seeds seem to germinate reasonable well, and Jim recommends using her as pollen donor (which I’ve done for this year).

The second seedling is from a cross of Earth Song x John Dickman. Pink, yes, but pretty with a lot of stripes nonetheless. This seedling is going to be a miniature or mini-flora.

Andy

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Your Kim your April Mooncrest looks great. I would love cuttings when they are available.

I did my first crosses with Crested Jewel this summer. I just got a plant from Rougue Valley and it had two lone flowers on it. I collected these from the small plant and did as many crosses as I could with the little pollen I had. Hopefully something decent comes from these few crosses. But I doubt the cresting comes through. Someone I think it was Paul wrote when crossed to modern roses the seedlings loss the cresting. And with such little pollen I crossed it mostly with the most surefire seed parents.

when crossed to modern roses the seedlings loss the cresting

Try to recover the cresting in subsequent generations by crossing the f1’s with each other.

When is best for you to mess with cuttings Adam? I have anthers from it drying now. I’ll photograph the pollen release tomorrow when it’s sunny to show you how much it sheds.

In making mini-flora I also fancy recreating the wheel a little based on knowledge from Mr Moore’s work. An article on Paul Barden’s website (I forget where… it’s been a while since I’ve read it), states that Mr Moore wanted to incorporate wichurana into his miniature breeding lines because he felt it would improve their ability to strike and grow on their own roots. He also states that Mr Moore felt the wichurana genes contained the ability to dwarf the proportions of its progeny without necessarily using miniature genes that result in more conventional minatures. Looking at the my own op 0-47-19 seedling you can see this clearly in that the leaves, internodal length, flowers, spines, etc are all smaller. The ability to grow long rambling stems is not lost and successive generations are needed to modify/tame this trait, however, I have long thought that a similar strategy might be applied in a more contemporary context. Mr Moore used ‘Floradora’ to create 0-47-19 and after that used this to create lots of his wonderful miniatures and mini-flora. I have often thought that redoing the same cross with more modern (thornless?) shrubs might result in minis with even better constitutions and manners than Mr Moore’s original hybrids too. I have grown OP ‘Floradora’ seedlings and did not keep any because they had more mildew than seedling and I’ve often thought that trying something newer available to us now, that wasn’t available to Mr Moore, might go some way to improving the long term health of minis and mini-flora. I’m really hoping the OP ‘Lynnie’ seeds Kim sent me start germinating so I can put this with some of the wich-seedlings I now have.

Kordes did this by combining ‘The Fairy’ with a seedling from wichurana to make ‘Immensee’. This was smart IMO because ‘The Fairy’ is already wichurana based through ‘Lady Gay’ and has polyantha dwarfing through ‘Paul Crampel’ so it is taking advantage of two different dwarfing mechanisms and when they are added to other conventional minis the result is even more dwarfing… many of which are micro-mini proportion in all ways expect their longer rambling stems. Noack has proven this to be a useful line of breeding as he has developed the Flower Carpet series from this. They can’t be called mini-flora but they have smaller flower and plant parts which is a start and Flower Carpet ‘Amber’ is approaching this description.

In 1971 Morey released a rose called ‘Temple Bells’. This was the result of crossing wichurana (seed parent) and ‘Blushing Jewel’, which is a miniature with both polyantha type dwarfing and mini genes from ‘Tom Thumb’. My experience with ‘Temple Bells’ is that it can drastically reduce the size of all parts and that the seedlings are invariably tough as nails (though not always). My personal opinion is that ‘Temple Bells’ is a wich hybrid that has an enormous amount of untapped potential to develop better mini-flora and miniature roses. You need to be careful what you put with it though as it can throw large roses and not all of them are healthy (well… here anyway). Roses like ‘White Meidiland’ come to mind… quite large and a disease nightmare here. ‘Temple Bells’ is also most likely a diploid so many of its hybrids will be triploids when used with modern tetraploids. This year I’ve been experimenting with combining ‘Temple Bells’ with other species and other diploids… no germinations yet though I’m hopeful they will start soon and a line of modern diploids might be made.

So… what I’m trying to say is… I would consider using wichurana itself with some of the better, more mildew resistant varieties to produce good mini, and mini-flora roses and would maybe choose something like a good poly to put it with. I’ve just ordered ‘Marie Pavie’ and ‘Baby Faraux’ to try this myself and I have also found wichurana itself to be quite accommodating in terms of making successful and fertile offspring. It worked well as a pollen parent too so instead of buying your own someone with a plant near you could send you pollen to try maybe. If you could find ‘Temple Bells’ I would try to get it. It is amazing. Checkout the foliage on this ‘Temple Bells’ seedling of mine… this seedling is my own version of 0-47-19 that I hope is going to be as valuable to me as 0-47-19 was to Mr Moore. I lost the hip-tag so don’t know the pollen parent but I suspect the hybrid laevigata ‘Anemone’ as I was splashing its pollen all over ‘Temple Bells’ the year I got this seedling and got lots of hips from this cross.

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This is an example of the kind of bloom I’m getting on ‘Temple Bells’ seedlings by using modern floribunba pollen on it. This, believe it or not, was its first flower. It’s one of my favourite seedlings I’ve bred so far. I lost the tag so don’t know the pollen parent. The plant is now 3 years old, 30cm tall and wide, and flowers all season long with big sprays of these baby-pink flowers. It strikes like a weed. Only problem is that as a potted plant the root system is too big and fills the pot too quickly resulting it a starving pot-bound plant by the end of every season. I’ve also noticed chlorosis seems to be an issue in my acidic soil on some ‘Temple Bells’ seedlings.

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With cuttings I have had the best luck with the burrito method in the fall. Most other times of the year I have almost total failure trying any type of cuttings on roses.

I like Simon’s idea, and would suggest exploring it in a slightly different direction. Try Basye’s Thornless Wichurana in an attempt to engineer in the thornless trait. If you don’t already have it, I can send you YARDS of cuttings! They strike easily, being fairly typical Wichurana, only without prickles. Determining the appropriate something newer than Floradora might be the trick. Had Floradora not contained the potential species genes, I wonder how beneficial it may have proved? One huge drawback to using that thing is the terrible colors it produces. I teased Ralph for years about his “Floradora Fade”, often from that sickly, stale melon orange often fading dishwater with algae. That is the source of many of his green seedlings. I have a REALLY green seedling from 0-47-19 on a suitably terrible plant.

PLEASE remind me when you’re ready for the cuttings. Mind like a steel seive and all.

As promised, here is the pollen release from April Mooncrest this morning. It has been applied to Pretty Lady, Eyes for You and Art Nouveau to see “what if?”.

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I got Burling’s list of available roses last night. I have not had a chance to sit and go through the list, but it’s very impressive.

I cannot overemphasize what a superior rose ‘Cal Poly’ is both as a care-free garden shrub and as a breeder.

Jeff, I live half way between Antique Rose Emporium in Brenham and Antique Rose Emporium in San Antonio so I am pretty familiar with their stock and have purchased from them over the years. From a hybridizing perspective I have had success with the following roses as either seed or pollen parent: Archduke Charles, Basye’s Blueberry, Cadenza, Dame de Coeur, Dortmund, Ducher, Francis Dubrieul, G. Nabannond, Heritage, Monsieur Tillier, Nacogdoches, Perle de Jardin, Rise-n-Shine and Winecup. Of course you would have to determine of any of these fit with the goals you are trying to accomplish.