Tamora fertility

I see on HMF that Tamora has been used as a pollen parent. Has anyone had success using it as a seed parent?

Also, as anyone used Tamora’s yellow sport ‘Lovely Child’ either way?


I’ve never planted any of the seed because I hate how prickly and rusty she is here, but Tamora sets plenty of self set hips here. Kim

Thanks for the reply Kim. Have you used her as a pollen parent at all? Tamora’s color and myrrh fragrance are very desireable as well. Disease resistance seems to be very good from everything I’m reading.

With her rugosa blood through

I recall: unusual scent. low vigor. pale apricot tone. double cupped form. and odd, green-grey foliage tone. matte foliage tone.twiggy. “clothe attaching hooked thorns”, yet small. small plant.

It was a very odd rose.

I was thinking about this dilemma again. I had wondered about something such as:

[(Musician x Topaz Jewel) x (Therese Bugnet x Topaz Jewel)]

Several of the Austins are available to me, Tamora being one, as they grow in friends or clients gardens. Out of curiosity, I pushed some of Tamora’s pollen several years ago on various minis and a few shrubs and nothing was worth doing anything with. That Meyer line may be OK for more severe, shorter season areas, but here it is guaranteed rust. Not just a few pustules, I’m talking glow in the dark, golden spotted leaves defoliating everything in sight. I haven’t encountered anything out of CF Meyer here yet which wasn’t afflicted.

I have Nova Zembla. It rusts quite well in Ontario. It’s not cane hardy & will not bloom until canes reach 7 ft. In my garden that would be at the end of August. The blooms are sumptuous & deliciously fragrant. I can see why a small shrub would have been attractive to Austin.


That combo smells of repeat yellow rugosa…maybe tetraploid? :slight_smile:


Where are you located? Out of ignorance I’ll ask what more severe, shorter season would have to do with rust? Is it cold temp killing off the spores? Thank you!


Rust definitely shows up when it is hot and dry in Oregon…which is rare. spider mites and rust seem to foloow to same late summer season when they do occur.

Theyre mostly diploid, Rob! All rugosa types are also 1/4 or less rugosa, which I think would help in retaining rugosa traits without running into typical rugosa issues (f2 genetic issues, yellow retention, overly course growth, etc). I dont know. I do not see how it couldnt hurt.

Ah, I was under the impression that Topaz Jewel was a triploid but now see that it’s diploid. I don’t know where I got triploid from… So, even a dipoloid rugosa F2 will have genetic issues? Do we know what it is about rugosa that causes genetic problems in f2?


Rob wrote: Where are you located? Out of ignorance I’ll ask what more severe, shorter season would have to do with rust? Is it cold temp killing off the spores? Thank you!

Rob, it has long appeared to me combining deciduous and evergreen foliage leads to confused genetic instructions. Rugosa is extremely healthy here. Teas are actually very healthy here. Breed the two together and they are horrid. It’s as if the plant is being told to hurry, create and use up the foliage quickly, then hold on to it until something physically knocks it off. Only Linda Campbell, Topaz Jewel and Star Delight have been acceptably to extremely clean here. NONE of the other, previously created Hybrid Rugosas have been worth growing in the San Fernando and Santa Clarita Valleys, north of Los Angeles.

Rust has been the largest issue with them all. Roserie d’la Hay, Rose a Parfum de la Hay, Meyer, Lipton, all of them have rusted as quickly as the foliage opened. And they’ve done it where rust was NEVER an issue. Tamora and all the Meyer/Austin clan rust with a vengance here. Nothing I’ve tried before on any of the H Rugosas has taken care of the rust because everything has caused all the foliage to be shed, whether it was involved with the infection or not.

This climate is too long for shorter duration foliage, and it doesn’t trigger the plants to drop the leaves once they move into their senility. Rust and black spot are geriatric diseases. Hybrid Arkansanas, Hybrid Rugosas and others with similar foliage types, burn through their foliage, then refuse to drop it until rust or black spot take it. More extreme winter weather, arriving earlier in the foliage life appears to be key in keeping these plants performing in their best health. Kim

Great explaination Kim. Thank you. So CF Meyer having both rugosa and tea blood is the issue that continues through Tamora. Do you think that in say F3 generation that that incompatibility problem works itself out?

Do you know if Rugelda and Keith’s Delight do well in your area?

Thanks again for the lesson.


You’re welcome, Rob. Of course, I could be totally off base, but it’s the only thing that makes any sense to me why famously healthy roses are so terrible here.

I have no idea whether the mixed messages problem eventually works itself out or not. The prickles are so obnoxious and health issues so extreme, I honestly won’t try working with it again. Nor will I buy anything bred from the line…OR Playboy.

Interestingly, Playboy cleans up really nicely when combined with Legacy. My Stars is totally clean here. Its seedlings have been rather weak and not as healthy so far.

I have Rugelda and it is OK here, but many of its seedlings mildew very badly. It doesn’t repeat well unless kept dead headed. I’ve only really used it for a year, so nothing is terribly old yet. But, it’s not created anything as good as the Legacy line, so the few remaining probably won’t hang around long.

I know Keith’s Delight is acceptable elsewhere, which is where it will remain. It never impressed me as an unnamed seedling. I don’t care for the flower color and hate what it fades to. Keith is Ralph’s son. I know him well and won’t grow the rose. Kim

Rugelda MUST be bred with a rose from non-climbing lineage if one wants to increase branching habit and rebloom. Its lineage should be Bonanza x Robusta, which concurs with the extremely strong climbing traits passed on to almost every descendant of Cl

Does ‘Basye’s Legacy’ repeat bloom? There’s not much information listed on HMF for it.


It has repeated sparingly some years, but don’t count on it. Repeat can come in the first generation or never. Not all minis provide repeat with it. Neither do all floribundas. I’ve limited to using it with minis and floribundas in hopes of taming the habit, engineering in more dwarf, controlled form and obtaining the heavy, repeat flowering. Ralph raised a number of once flowering seedlings from it with Anytime. Pretty much everything he created with it and Playboy bloomed early and small, like Lynnie does.

It sets seed like there’s no tomorrow, but they’re mostly selfs as it sheds pollen before the petals fully ripen to open. Its seedlings tend to be small and lack vigor compared to those created when you use its pollen instead. Also, pollen set seed are much easier to determine hybridity in. It’s a whale of a lot easier to see Legacy’s traits when you don’t expect them, than to see unLegacy like ones in a huge sample of very similar, small seedlings. Seriously, I stripped the plant one year and blendered the seed then sewed them like grass seed and they responded like grass seed! A field of green!

lol Very fertile then. Can I also ask what is its growth habit? Again, not much info on HMF.

Legacy can grow like a Dr. Huey plant. It all depends upon how sharp your pruning shears are. It will branch into laterals like a climber or it can be “encouraged” to be a branching shrub, but it definitely desires to be used like a climber. I’ve always loved how malleable the thing is. It IS totally without any prickles. It is definitely deciduous with very nice autumn foliage. In both the mid desert and here on the inland valley side of the coastal mountains, it is totally disease free.

It roots well and grows perfectly own root. EVERY flower forms a round, marble like, orange hip with persistent sepals. The wood is very photo reactive in cold weather with bright sun, a trait passed on to all of its babies (thankfully!). Hybrids of it are EXTREMELY easy to differentiate from non hybrids. There is just a “look”, a “glossiness” to the foliage, branching habit, cluster flowering, sepals, wood, everything about it. Ralph used to hand me small pots of things and ask if I could guess where it came from. Legacy seedlings were always easy to spot! He’d chuckle each time because I’d bugged him for so long to use it.

The hips persist long into winter, causing one idiot to cut half my plant off one Thanksgiving to use for an arrangement.

I’ve honestly thought it would be an easy rose to use like a Banksia and just let it go, do its own thing. Even after flowering, the hips would be spectacular and I am sure self seedlings would occur everywhere, like the danged Washingtonias do here. With its total smoothness, gorgeous foliage and beautiful hips, I certainly wouldn’t mind having to hack it back if were to get out of bounds. I’ve never had anywhere to let it go, but the original plant Basye sent to The Huntington had grown up into the Oak tree it shared with The Probable Amphidiploid. It wasn’t anywhere near as large and scary as the Amphidiploid, but it definitely climbed into the lower branches of that tree. And, it was gorgeous! I’d read of it in the ARS annuals and found his passage of how he’d sent wood of it to them, making it available to anyone wishing it for a small donation to the institution. Clair lamented that in all the years it was there (less than ten at that time), NO ONE had ever inquired about either of them. Knowing what it was from their source cards, I quickly began propagating it to spread it around ASAP. Even in those days, the plans called for The Study Plot, where all the once flowering, found and odd roses were grown, to be developed into the Chinese Exhibition, so I knew its days were numbered. Fortunately, we replicated everything which grew there so nothing would be lost completely.

Both of the Basye plants growing there were own root directly from the wood Basye sent them as no one budded anything in those days. The remnants of my plant (huge, only gnarl with a cane protruding from one side) is an own root cutting from that plant.

What else can I tell you? If you have specific questions, they’ll probably prime the pump and trigger images I can’t conjure at the moment. Kim


I have a seedling from seed I raised from Henry several years ago called (“Illusion x George Vancouver) x Basye’s Amphidiploid”. I have been a bad parent though. It has yet to bloom but is highly healthy and drought tolerant. It just is not very big because I moved it twice…from clay to clay… because of some life changes recently. I’ll amend the soil this spring though, which should help. If I can get it to bloom (prolly next year), I will tell you. Its a rather brilliant cross. I just need to get it in working order.

I raised a continous flowering seedling from the Amphidiploid but don’t have it any longer. The last piece of it I knew of was with Joan Monteith. I hope she still has it.