Based on experience/theory can anyone suggest what color seedlings I might wind up with by crossing purple with yellow or orange, and vice versa? Tell me brown, tan or russet and not pink…
I’m using Midnight Blue with Westerland and Autumn Sunset.
I believe you would get a mauve colored one or even red, its so frustrating that pinks show up alot no matter what colors you use.
I have a Tatton x Purple Heart that yilded a wavy, semi-double floribunda thats hot violet blended with smoky mauve.
Ive learned to only preidct probable ranges of color (among other things) rather than caring about exactness.
I am guessing that you’ll get a fair amount of hot violet tones. I get that color a lot no matter what I use when using Midnight Blue, Purple Heart or Ebb Tide. For example, Purple Heart x Pretty Lady yielded a neon violet-pink that is about as eye melting as the HT Hot Princess. The color of Hot Princess doesnt translate online or in pictures but you’ll know what I mean if you see it in person. Often, though, this line is usually dusky toned violet-pink colors. I imagine that some of your seedlings of a cross like that have the ptential for some unusual colors, too. But expect a lot of violet lol.
As another example, Moon within Tidal Waves x Magenta yielded a coral pink HT seedling this spring =/ The tone looks like it was picked up from Fragrant Cloud via Freude. Ah…pink…blech 
this is an Outta the Blue x Julia Child seedling.
Link: picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SfHRmczHVHhewM4nbBn4og?feat=directlink
this one is an Outta the Blue x Baby Love seedling.
Sorry for the multiple posts, as I can not seem to directly link either photo. Actually could someone send me an email with instructions as to how to do that?
Link: picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nlrhncUWBIka-mCzlZtt_Q?feat=directlink
Two years ago: ‘Midnight Blue’ X ‘Arthur Bell’ and the reciprocal. Results? 100% were dirty pinks and peachy things sullied with a muddy overlay. Nothing purple, certainly no tans. All were dreadful colors. I grew about 200 seedlings from these crosses, all were discarded. I think it might be possible to get something better if I had chosen a red with a yellow reverse for the “yellow” parent. Didn’t LeGrice mention something about getting browns out of yellow/red bicolors?
Arthur Bell isnt saturated enough to pull off anything to compete with the whole Big Purple/Violetta line. Even then, though, I think that something as saturated as Shockwave would still have a difficult time competing color-wise.
I imagine most modern mauves (not specifically purple)and mauve-russets are derived between the clash of Rosa foetida bicolor and cyanin rich HT’s. I am sure that it is far more complicated than that, and I wish that I knew the complexities. It’s all such an… untouched field of idea.
Roses like Iris Webb and Scottish Highlands could produce some interesting colors. There really are not that many red/gold bicolors now. That combination has seem to gone out of fad from the 1950s-1980s. However, roses like Gold Badge seem to be able to produce similar. Maybe something like Gold Badge would make for an interesting combo. The descendants of Zorina also seem to be responsible for a lot of mauves and russets. That is something to take note of.
The unfortunate news is that there are not a lot of true shrub roses to use regarding all of this. Westerland is remarkable in that it is one of the few in its color range and class that is also healthy. Its still an anomoly even though it is 40 years old now. Buck has a few roses in these tones, but theyre not very strong in color concentration. Even the newer Kordes hardy shrubs/climbers have weaker colors than Westerland, such as Postillion and Aloha Hawaii, which are both Westerland hybrids.
Had 200 seedlings of Midnight blue X Baby Love and all were discarded due to 99 % being pinkish. I think I might have a purple somewhere left.
Patrick
Darn…I had hoped that I would get some brown/tan/russets from these combinations. Anything but pink please! Well, maybe I can be hopeful for some DEEP reds (like Taboo) or purples from these crosses: Midnight Blue x Illusion, Midnight Blue x Quadra and the reverse for each. I also have some Midnight Blue x Ruglauca that might produce something interesting. Ruglauca is (Rugosa #3 x R. glauca) x OP. Ruglauca has nicely colored leaves, is extremely healthy and has a nice mauve-ish color. A purple flower with grey-green leaves would be nice.
Thanks for the input on color potential all.
I crossed Shockwave with (among others) Ebb Tide and Silver Star. The Ebb Tide did not take but The Silver Star cross is producing whites, pinks and Mauve-tinged red. One really healthy seedling is a very large, wavy,seemi-double white with a deep pink edge. Imagine a pastel Betty Boop with a clean white. I don’t think roses read the color theory articles.
Hi Rob,
I also got lots of seedlings from ‘Midnight Blue’ X ‘Baby Love’. One was a nice purple mini, almost as dark as ‘Midnight Blue’. A few were purplish pink, but most were pink. I have only kept 2 or 3 from that cross. None were even suggestive of russet/tan/brown.
A cross that you might consider is ‘Midnight Blue’ X ‘Singin’ in the Rain’. I haven’t tried it yet, but I may next year - all of my ‘Midnight Blue’ blooms are already dedicated to other crosses and pollinated! It sure is productive!
Jim Sproul
Rob,
I asked a similar question a few years back. Thought it might be worth linking together as in it I was advised that strong dark oranges (like ‘Hot Chocolate’) are good to put with these new dark purples like ‘Ebb Tide’. I bought ‘Hot Chocolate’ and it’s ok, but I’ve decided not to go the ‘Ebb Tide’ x ‘Hot Chocolate’ route… I don’t want to breed floribunda… so I’ve ordered ‘Edith Holden’ to go with ‘Ebb Tide’ instead. I’ll still use ‘Hot Chocolate’ but with ‘Violette’ and ‘William Lobb’ instead. I used ‘Hot Chocolate’ on ‘Route 66’ and ‘Flower Carpet Scarlet’ this season and have seeds in the fridge from these crosses now and will probably put ‘Hot Chocolate’ onto ‘Tuscany Superb’, and ‘Monsier Tillier’ (as well as ‘Ebb Tide’ onto MT too), this coming season as well (‘Tuscany’ took on ‘Routee 66’ this season… hope these seeds germinate for me).
Link: rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=18394#18438
Thanks for the suggestion Jim. Singing in the Rain is very attractive and I like the color as well.
Simon: I’m looking to obtain mini to floribunda sized plants due to my space limitations so if I can find Hot Chocolate I may give that one a shot. Love the color on that one. What are your thoughts on Hot Cocoa with Midnight Blue? I think I’ve seen this one at a local nursery.
Thanks again all.
Rob
Coffee Bean is a pretty cool mini.
Thanks Jadae. I really like what I saw on HMF for Cofee Bean. I’ll put that one on my list to order. If I can get it this fall I can try working with it under lights.
Rob
No probelm. Coffee Bean is one of the few minis Id recommend for a garden.
Simon, Edith Holden is a floribunda. It is a tad floppy sometimes, but it is definitely a floribunda. The lineage on HMF is likely wrong for Belinda (the Hmusk/Poly) for being the female parent. The Belinda (Floribunda from Tantau, which descends from Zorina) that is more mdern is likely the true parent. You can see the similarities in a rose called Coffee Country.
I agree with Jim that Singin in the Rain would probably compliment Midnight Blue in breeding. Morden Sunrise might do something interesting, too.
Stephen Rulo is a nice tan colored rose and that was bred with Singin in the Rain and Stainless Steel. When Stephen Rulo is in the sun you can see the light purple coloring of Stainless Steel, it is a beautiful rose.
I also remembered that Cinco de Mayo would probably work similar to Zorina regarding mauves and purples.
I brought two Hot Cocoa plants about last December, to use as pollen parents…they repeat flower sooo much here that I just pulled one out to make room for a different rose, and there will surely still be sufficient pollen from that one plant for my needs…HC gets moderate BS in my climate, but it keeps most of its leaves, but the repeat flower production is the thing I like most about it…it is a “work horse” floribunda round here.
Hot Chocolate = Hot Cocoa… same rose… different countries 
'Edith Holden might be a floribunda… tending towards huge or a climber with better health… that’s why I went for it over HC…