This rose from Morden, uses diploids in it’s parentage (Ross Rambler). I would love to work with this rose if it is a fertile triploid. I have gotten seedlings fron it but I have not looked at pollen size of the parent or the seedlings that I got. The only real problem that I have is with Black Spot.
Johannes
Johannes going through its breeding it looks like being a Triploid. There seems to be a few triploids involved in its breeding , sometimes your lucky and other times your not. HMF lists no offspring for this rose, so it gives you an idea that it may be extremely difficult or unfertile.
@ Warren could it not also be they are not listed on HMF or there has been no crosses of it made as yet.
Dave it has been around for 54yrs, thats why I said it may extremely difficult or sterile.
Warren yes I have gotten seedlings from it so it is not sterile. it produces many hips but with only one seed -very similar to the othe triploids I have worked with. johannes
Johannes,
I’ve done a search of the forum and there is nothing said about 'Prairie Dawn’s ploidy. As I’m sure you realise; with a probable triploid as its pollen parent it could be triploid. But without knowing what level ‘Prairie Youth’ is at there is no real way to be sure from the pedigree. It would be worth doing some pollen measurements if you are set up to do it. But there is no harm in just trying it out and seeing if it works with you.
If you want a confirmed triploid you could try ‘Prairie Joy’. It looks like it has potential for you. May be worth considering?
Hi Graham, The problem is that I am interested that I really like it. Yes I do have a microscope with a grid and video to do measurement. The problem is that I do not have a plant…st Albert may have one that I could use Only Black Spot is a problem. It is hardy to the tips in Zone 2. Instead of Prairie Joy which has never really become protect our area that it was bred, for a confirmed triploid I would use Alexander Mckenzie if I had to. Thanks Johannes
Johannes, how bad is the black spot on ‘Prairie Dawn’? My plant is still young, but hasn’t been especially disease prone so far. I’m curious what might be in store for it.
Stefan
I have seen it completely defoliated by the end of a season but it is usually around 50%. One also has to consider that I live in a relatively dry climate and for you in East could make it worse. An other point I could give you is that most Morden defoliate at the same or faster rate. I find Morden Blush the worst. We do have different strains and Terry R has shown pictures of John Davis that is attacked by BS and this rose was considered iron clad. Hope this helps Stefan. Johannes
Johannes,
Is ‘Prairie Joy’ not fully hardy in your area? There’s a comment from someone in Ontario (apparently in Zone 2) on HMF that it is “disease free, totally hardy without winter protection”. Which sounded promising.
Can I ask where you got the info on ‘Alexander Mckenzie’ being triploid? HMF lists as tetreploid and only hardy to Zone 4. Do they have it wrong on this one?
Prairie Joy is not fully hardy in my zone 3a - foothills calgary - based on 11 winnters but it has no performance issue for me as it rebounds quickly to provide a good spring flush. I can end up cutting up to 50 to 65% of the canes due to winter kill. Plant faces south and protected by being planted in front of South Bay window so it pretty much has it as good as it gets in my zone. Never reaches more than 3 feet. Alex MacKenzie -also 11years- planted beside and same soft conditions - I still wait for it to go 4 feet in a year -significant die back one expects from explorers in my zone. I should mention I also get totally bizarre experiences where one version of my Therese Bugnets died right to the ground but came back to 3feet and bloomed by fall. Prairie dawn on the other hand a real soldier. Not sure whether anyone cares about this but one of my more past successful explorers was john cabot until the schubert chokecherry trees got them - still not totally cane hardy but good cane survival (ymmv).
I admit to not having bred any roses, but I like a challenge, so to you Johannes, there is an old saying which goes like this,
“nothing ventured, nothing gained”, it is similar to what Kim mentioned about Mr Moore’s comment, “because I have it”.
David,
How can someone who likes a challenge not have bred any roses?
[quote=Jinksy]
Is ‘Prairie Joy’ not fully hardy in your area? There’s a comment from someone in Ontario (apparently in Zone 2) on HMF that it is “disease free, totally hardy without winter protection”. [/quote]
The person who mentioned being in USDA zone 2 is in Thunder Bay, ON, which is not in USDA zone 2. The difference between Canadian and USDA plant hardiness zones can be confusing.
Thunder Bay is listed as USDA Zone 4A, with a winter low of -30°F to -25°F (approx. -32 to -35 C), so it’s not surprising that Prairie Joy is totally hardy there.
That explains that one then.
Thanks Peter.
Thanks Johannes, that is helpful! I remember how bad most Morden roses were back home in Minnesota; I never understood why they were so popular there, but I guess that living among the trees probably increased the black spot pressure quite a bit for me (it was always more humid and less windy than surrounding areas). I would imagine that here on the East Coast the situation will only be that much worse, but we’ll see.
My first ‘Prairie Dawn’ was mislabeled, and I suspect it is actually ‘Prairie Princess’. My current plant is, I believe, the real thing. Identification issues only complicate breeding efforts and useful communication about roses.
Stefan
[quote=Jinksy]
David,
How can someone likes a challenge not have bred any roses?[/quote]
Graham,
not to thread jack this, I am newish to this side of roses, had roses for years. plans are afoot, and it is going to be Yellow(whatever). Ask Kim R.
Hardiness zones are given for broad areas, and are based on air temperatures, so plant hardiness zone ratings may be deceptive.
Notice that Riku gave not only his zone but also the growing locations of his plants. The growing location of the plant is more important than the nominal hardiness zone. If someone in USDA Hardiness Zone 3A, for example, grows roses in an open field where snow rarely gets deeper than 2 inches, those roses are probably getting the full Zone 3A treatment. But if the roses are on the downwind side of a fence or hedge that catches the snow, the roses may be experiencing much balmier conditions in most years because of early and long-lasting protection from fairly deep snow. Maybe every few years will come a winter with little snow, and then these plants get damaged very severely.
Some other factors significant in plant survival (hardiness) relate to slopes and the plants’ position on the slope:
***Are they at the top where the temperature is usually what it would be on a flat surface, or are they at the bottom where the cold air sinks?
***Are they on the north side so they don’t get warmed up early in the spring, or are they on the south so they sprout early and are more susceptible to late freezes?
And of course there are other factors–but the point is that it’s good to remember that hardiness zones, although useful, do not tell the whole story. The new USDA cold hardiness map is supposed to account for many of these micro-environmental conditions, but the numbers for such individualized zones might be too long to remember.
Peter
David,
Glad you have plans afoot. I’m sure your roses will give you the challenge you’re looking for.
Peter,
I get that hardiness zones attached to roses are a general indicator rather than a guaranty of survival in a given region. And as a Welshman I get the gardening on slopes bit perfectly well. We have very few places in Wales that are not on a slope of some kind. And being from the valleys of Wales I’ve had to consider exposure and frost pockets from the first seed I sowed. We don’t have the same extremes here but placement can still make a huge difference to a marginally hardy plant. The different classification systems, now those I haven’t quite got my head around yet.
Would anyone know if ‘Prairie Dawn’, and ‘Prairie Joy’ carry juvenile flowering? Looking at their pedigree I’d imagine that that is where they get their repeat from but any information on that trait from peoples experiences in breeding with them would be appreciated.
I’ve ordered both from Loubert already, another impulsive buy, but I’m running out of time for bare root orders so I have to be impulsive about it (well that’s my excuse at least). I’ve considered buying some of more modern Canadian shrubs before, mainly some of the explores because the are available here. But I’ve always decided against it, wanting to avoided anything that wasn’t diploid. But I’m at the stage where I’m ready to start creating and using triploids in my breeding so I figure why not give them a shot.
As David said “nothing ventured, nothing gained” (we should probably get that phrase translated into Latin and adopt it as the rose breeders motto).
Per Google Translator it’s…
nihil Ausus et nihil permanere