It is one of the most interesting places that I have lived. Interesting not in a bad way.
I will have to check that out. Colorado State has a lot of old horticultural books. They are all found in a way back corner of the basement. When your down there you feel like your in a horror film. But I guess it is safe because nobody ever goes down into that corner of the basement. It is field with my type of books. The type for plant nerds. Most of them written before I was born.
Simon, I grow 5 Baby Faurax/Raymond Privat and 4 Sweet Chariots. The two have quite different plant habits. Baby Faurax/Raymond Privat have almost normal sized leaves, the terminal leaflet 2 inches long, and straight, stiff basals that fan out in a “V”. Occasionally a cane will be thornless, but most are covered with many very short, narrow, declining tan prickles. I mean covered. Plants from the same source differ widely in vigor. I have one plant of RP that is 5-6 feet wide with at least one broomstick basal. Little scent (like rubber or plastic), few small red round hips. Reblooms regularly.
SC forms a bushier, rounder, twiggier plant. Blooms are sweetly scented. If I recall correctly, it has few prickles, none on the inflorescence, and those it has are stout, reddish with wide bases. It covers itself in small red hips in the fall. Rebloom not as great.
If you have yet a different mauve shortie, l want to know about it. Heinrich Karsch is slightly pinker, fewer petals. Can’t remember the scent. Not as floriferous as either of the other two.
Link: www.rosefog.us/TemporaryImages/RaymondPrivatSweetChariot.jpg
Simon,
Out of curiosity, what drew you to Sweet Chariot for that cross?
A few observations…I most often don’t mess with HTs because of the reasons listed. However, I raised a group of Cherry Parfait X (Dottie Louise X Fedtschenkoana) seedlings, and one or two from Nicole Carol Miller. The crosses were not planned. There was left over pollen and a few flowers of these just “asking for it”. Most of the ones I planned, didn’t cooperate. Only 1-72-1 has been as cooperative as Cherry Parfait with the DLFED pollen.
Interestingly, only the 1-72-1 crosses have flowered so far. None of the HT seedlings have done anything but grow. The 1-72-1 crosses vary from more mini type growth, not diminuitive, just more miniaturized in plant parts and reduced stature, but still vigorous. The HT crosses vary from the same rampant growth the larger mini crosses exhibit to very weak, runt plants. I’ve kept them all to see how they play out. So far, they all exhibit very good disease resistance. Most are deciduous and most are rather to intensely thorny.
Most have very attractive foliage, the HT crosses exhibiting the most exotic look, the Blue CPDLFED being the wildest.
I used Glad Tidings in hopes of intensifying the pigments as Orangeade had. Didn’t work. Initially, I thought I might have tags mixed, though I am positive I don’t as there was nothing else in that seed box end which germinated. Now the plant is starting to really grow, it’s obvious it is not a GT self!
It’s starting to stretch while continuing to flower everywhere. It is remaining clean and very well may be evergreen.
The continuous flowering 1-72-1 X DLFED seedling (#3)hasn’t slowed down blooming, and is now beginning to produce taller growth without flower clusters at the ends.
It is prickly, with the same prickles exhibited by the lone 0-47-19 x DLFED seedling.
Should anyone like pieces of any of the Fedtschenkoana seedlings, please let me know. If they sucker, I’ll be happy to send suckers, otherwise, cuttings.
Paul,
If you wind up with an extra sucker at some point I’d love to try your Fedtschenkoana seedling.
Rob
Apparently Trumpter is a direct linebreed of Evelyn Fison and Korona, lol. I never really considered it til all of the parentage was staring me right at my face.
If taken apart as great-grandparents, the lineage is:
Moulin Rouge x Korona
Korona x Spartan
Hamburger Phoenix x Danse de Feu
Evelyn Fison x (Rosa macrophyla coryana x Cinnabar)
This means that it has Korona 3 times and Moulin Rouge 2 times. I am sure Baby Chateau is hidden in there more than that. So one of the world’s leading floribundas is massively inbred and linebred, lol. But it also has Rosa x kordesii, Rosa multiflora and Rosa robburghii in its close background.
Maybe I should try to put the pollen of my Belle Epoque x Rosa roxburghii on Remembrance, Trumpeter’s kid 
It has been sterile so far though.
Recent studies about genetics point to the fact genes quite often code for multiple effect and as we long know that a single effect often need more than one gene. An implication is that selecting i.e. for a plant/flower model in a specieshybrid derived population unwillingly we are eliminating much more wild genes than intended. So that after a (very?) few backcrosses not much if any is left.
Another implication is that there is no contradiction between diversity of expressed characteristics and often published genetical low diversity among highly bred roses.
Notable also that crossing sister seedlings from an unrelated species cross is very very far from line breeding. It is not much different from population breeding. An extreme opposite.
Yeah, I was curious as to how much Rosa roxburghii is actually present in modern tetraploids, and what would happen if these trace genetics were recombined in later generations. I am assuming that not much of all would be noticed but it is still a valid inquiry because we really cannot know without a physical verfification of some sort. I was actually surprised by the use of Rosa macrophylla coryana, which is half R. roxburghii, being transfered into modern tetraploids. I am assuming that the diploid version of Rosa macrophylla was used in R. m coryana because the R. roxburghii traits are very evident. This also raises the question of if using species hybrids of difficult species is more successful at retaining those genetics desired. Does this sort of bridging become helpful? And, if so, would it be even more helpful to linebreed back?
McGredy stated the following:
"Maxi was bred from a species hybrid known as Rosa macrophylla coryana, a large-leaved Chinese wild rose that is very resistant to black-spot.
At p. 36:
It has taken me [Sam McGredy writing in 1971] fifteen years to get my macrophylla coryana half-way tamed. Macrophylla coryana is a rose that blooms once a year and grows up to fifteen feet tall. What I wanted to do with it was to tame it into a disease-resistant floribunda that would flower all the season with a bloom like that of a hybrid tea, and growing only four or five feet tall… The first repeat flowering seedling I got from Rosa macrophylla coryana grew eight feet tall, bolt upright, with a few miserable single rose-red flowers on top. But it did repeat."
One can see that the foliage in Trumpeter is also present in Siobhan, another hybrid from the work quoted above. Personally, they look more influenced by Hamburger Phoenix than anything else. How much Rosa roxburghii left in either Trumpeter or Siobhan is currently anyone’s guess.
All a very interesting discussion, which can be answered by someone with a DNA array rather easily, if they have say 50 K for materials and lots of labor to donate. Pierre’s point is well taken. I think I wrote an article about it in the RHA news. Even if the chromosomes are there, the traits may be unexpressed from one parent or the other.
This year I had bloom on a backcross, of Carefree Beauty x (Carefree Beauty x Austrian Copper). It looks as a bush like A.C., bloomed once only with bright red single flowers. It accepted pollen from several CV, and its pollen was used on several. I guess in this case the species is pushing out the C.B. gene expression, even if not shedding chromosomes. But it is blackspot resistant unlike the surrounding seedlings. So something good came of the cross. Stay tuned for next generation.
