So which rose is the German Shepard? 
Isn’t Souv. de Claudius Denoyel the prepotent sire the vegetative centers ? 
If you’re making the point that roses aren’t like dog breeds, I concede.
I have a contrary thought. Maybe the loss of old germplasm is a good thing and is as it should be.
For fun, take a look at thoroughbred breeding. Thoroughbred racing uses all kinds of crazy breeding statistics. A lot of it is complete junk science. The notion that inbreeding through the female line is more beneficial than other inbreeding, for example, is…interesting.
I wasnt making a point. I was tired and thought it was funny, lol.
Hi Cass,
I think that you are right about line breeding - it’s all about selection.
Unlike animals, roses can be used indefinitely. You can learn from your mistakes. For example, if a particular cross produces nothing, don’t repeat it. If a different cross produces something interesting, repeat it like crazy.
I believe too, that it is okay to “lose” germplasm. I would be very happy to lose the powdery mildew susceptible gene(s). Now, I don’t know whether with regard to diseases that resistant or susceptible genes are more important (this might make another interesting thread). I suppose in part it depends on how you look at things. I do know that line breeding can concentrate the “good” genes.
One of my favorite shrub type seed parents is a selection of ‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’. It seems to have lost the black spot susceptibility of ‘Marmalade Skies’, yet retained it’s floriferousness. I selected a self seedling of this = (‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’) X (‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’). That seedling was even more floriferous. I then crossed it back to the original seedling. The resulting parentage is:
(‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’) X [(‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’) X (‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’)]
This seedling is more floriferous and has glossy, clean foliage in our climate. I do not see any disease on it. The down side is that it takes after its mom, in that it holds onto its petals forever. That trait though can be a good thing if the flowers fade in a pleasing way. Also, it can be used to advantage in other specific crosses. For example, the Hulthemias as a group tend to drop petals very early (they get this from ‘Tigris’, and I think the original species). So, combined with this particular seedling, there may be something worth discovering.
For me, the ideal breeding program would involve a significant amount of line breeding coupled with periodic injections of specific other cultivars or species that have traits that you would like to incorporate. Then cross your fingers, and just follow what is pleasing to your eye (color, foliage, floriferousness).
Jim Sproul
Hi, Jim.
My poorly expressed point about loss of germplasm doesn’t refer to specific qualities but rather to specific cultivars. Yes, the hybridizer, knowing the exact parentage, can use the parents repeatedly, selecting from many crosses. The problem is that after outstanding progeny are produced, the parents fall into disuse or the proprietary line that produced them, as property of the hybridizer, dies with the hybridizer. The progeny, of course, don’t necessarily have the same ability to pass along all the outstanding qualities that combined from the parents to produce outstanding offspring. In the perfect world of “The Market” (sorry, bad joke), subsequent hybridizers wouldn’t use the progeny in breeding if they are inferior. But the reality is that subsequent hybridizers usually lack access to the parents and/or parentage, which are the intellectual property of the initial hybridizer.
That’s the loss of germplasm I was thinking of. As I said as an after-thought, maybe it’s the way it should be.
Cass
Here are some roses to consider re: this subject. im just gonna copy/paste from HMF cause this laptop iritates me too much to type it all out.
Midnight Blue
Seed: [Sweet Chariot
I remembered the line breed I tried out a few years ago. Its amazing where your mind goes while being held by force in a fabric store =/ It was Elina x Voodoo, two really strong growers. They produced awful little formless, mildewed runts en masse.
Its amazing where your mind goes while being held by force in a fabric store<<<<<
this is what used to happen to me as a kid with my mom who was a dressamker…I hated being dragged around to such places…ROFL.
BTW I am amazed ANY pollen actually took onto your Elina in the first place.
Thanks Jim
This is just how I feel about “line breeding” and you have explained its uses so well.
Your example re (Marmalade Skies X Baby Love) is spot on but I am interested in why you used the the original seed parent at the 3rd generation instead of continuing to “self”. Do you see any advantage to “not selfing”?
I ask this as in my situation where every new plant eliminates an old one, I would “self” if there was no reason not too just to save the space.
My only further comment on line breeding is that not only the good features help in the breeding process
It will concentrate the “bad” genes just as much making them obvious to select against. This has huge advantages when working with a plant that has some “defect” in it(and dont they all).
Because we produce multiple plants over multiple generations we are able to select against the the “defect” to the extent that it “dissapears”.
Although the gene/s will never truly be lost it is really only of concern to us as breeders, as after all we are producing a finite product(whether plant or flower) and the genetics of the plant is of no interest to the end user. Even if a plant has “bad genes”, if it does not express them, to the beholder they dont exist.
It becomes our job to take this “defective” plant and by our skill (or luck) produce something new that is worth the effort. Then that “new” plant must stand on its own merits untill someone decides to work with it and repeat the whole process again.
This is where a little insanity helps,without that ingredient it would be very hard to start breeding,but once we do start it is so rewarding.
Russ
Hi Russ
Let me challenge your point.
Why do you think every breeder from the very beginnings did not try line breeding?
To have a better rose in the sophisticated classes and colors it is (was allways) natural to breed best x best.
I.e. Red HT or Yellow HT are two groups of heavily consanguine and very difficult-inefficient to breed roses from the very beginnings.
That the outstanding vars are often from outcrosses, including in previous groups.
That to have a chance from “close breeding” growing very large progenies is a necessity.
As well as the fact that conversely for species in original environment allmost every seedling is fit.
Everything points to the necessity of outcrossing.
At 68 looking for efficience I do more species crosses than ever. Probably as I am living in a difficult for roses climate and never spray unlike close by Meilland and Massad. I prefer a performing-decorative rose be it at cost of flower sophistication.
Combine decorative performance and charm, that’s my goal.
Hi Russ,
Thanks for your comments. I chose the cross:
(‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’) X [(‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’) X (‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’)], which produced the seedling that I code named I166,
instead of:
[(‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’) X (‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’)] X [(‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’) X (‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’)]
because the original seedling:
(‘Marmalade Skies’ X ‘Baby Love’), code named G168-2,
was a more vigorous and cleaner plant. I crossed its selfed seedling with it because the selfed seedling was more floriferous. The resulting seedling, I166, had the good qualities of its seed parent and better floriferousness like the pollen parent.
Let me say that I have no intention of further backcrossing I166 directly to G168-2. I am happy with I166 and what it can produce. I166 becomes an “ingredient” to cross with everything else that I like. However, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it in crosses with other seedlings of G168-2, where a widely divergent pollen parent were used.
I don’t think that I166 would produce anything very much different from itself if “selfed” again.
Once you get a good parent, I like to use it as a “bridge” to combine other desirable roses.
For example, it might be interesting to combine ‘Julia Child’ with ‘Purple Tiger’. I would be concerned however, that the resulting seedling would lack vigor and perhaps be disease prone. It might be worthwhile doing crosses combining each with I166 or G168-2, and crossing the best seedlings of each cross with the other:
(G168-2 X 'Julia Child) X (I166 X ‘Purple Tiger’)
I’m not sure whether this example makes sense, but it is in general the way that I have approached crosses.
Jim Sproul
Yeah, I drove my gf to her family’s home in Washington. My thanks was staring at a wall in enternal boredom or a 4 hour trip to the fabric store. My only escape was a laptop that my hands were too big to use. I desperately searched for the off button on my hip, shoulder or calves … nothing. In the end, I made the wrong choice. I would have rather stared at a wall in silence than have to answer, “How does this look?” times infinity =(
Lesson: Time stands still in fabric stores, working math is not a fabric store worker’s strong suit, and 50% off clearanced fake silk roses are no substitute for the real thing. Maybe fabric stores cause the synapses of the heterosexual male mind to inbreed? 
Maybe that is cause of the feeling “I think I just died a little in the inside right there”. lol
Jim,
Your example made perfect sense. The information I’ve received in response to my question has been outstanding. I’m learning so much from you all. Thank you to each of you. Keep the information coming!
Rob
One thing that amazes me is that when combined with something as wide as a species, HT genes receive an enormous boost and I get the feeling that all is not lost… hybrid vigour is alive and well BUT this hybrid vigour is lost pretty quickly once conventional line breeding continues. I’m thinking of the bracteata hybrid ‘Many Happy Returns’ here. I’m underwhelmed by it so far in terms of health and vigour (maybe it’s because it is grafted so I’m trying to strike cuttings to ‘get a second opinion’). I’m growing a seedling now from last season that is ‘Sweet Chariot’ x multiflora and in twelve months it has formed a super thorny 4ft x 4ft bush that laughs at disease and has the most wonderful thick wrinkled leaves. Whilst not HT genes the improvement in vigour is astounding. It’s about to flower for the first time and with a little luck it will be something like SC… it’s vigour and health eclipse SC by a country mile! What I intend to do with this rose first is self it to try and bring remontancy back out without introducing any new genes because I like where I’m at with it.
I have ‘Scabrosa’ x ‘Gold Coin’ which is a million times stronger and healthier than GC but not as strong as ‘Scabrosa’… I intend to line breed this with my other rugosa x modern toughies,if they prove fertile, but have decided that outcrossing to species or back to these founder crosses will probably be necessary to reinject this vigour from time to time… also giving a wider base to this line-breeding process.
Another thing I have been noticing lately is that by growing as many OP species seeds as I can I’m seeing an enormous array of variation. In my multiflora seedlings they were all large, strong, thornless, shrubs except one that is a thornless, diminutive, healthy, plant. In my (clinophylla x bracteaea) x (clinophylla x bracteata) seedlings there is one really small one. A conversation Kim had with Robert on HMF sometime back about clinophylla x bracteata was about Kim wanting Robert’s smaller seedlings in the hope they may play a part in taming these giants. I think this is a really interesting line to take. It means that maybe I can introduce better forms with species vigour without stirring the same pot. My feeling now is that I am going to grow as many species seeds as possible to look for the variations that exist and collect these for the purpose of making foundation breeders.
After combining modern genes into the mix and line breeding for a while, outcrossing to these will help replenish the species complimemt of genes that you selected for in the first place… The way I see it when I use a HT, or any modern rose for that matter, in any cross it’s because I want a particular gene or set of genes and the rest can be bred out again with careful selection. I’ll have to make sure my Daughter is keen to take on the programs in the future and ensure she passes this legacy down to her successors but this is the way I see it working to dig us out of the hole roses are in. Kind of exciting really.
Simon,
“My feeling now is that I am going to grow as many species seeds as possible to look for the variations that exist and collect these for the purpose of making foundation breeders.”
I really like that idea. Back in 1990 when I first stared growing roses from seed I used R. rugosa collected from the beaches of Provincetown, MA. All looked the same except for one which had VERY narrow leaves and diminitive growth as compared to the others. Looking back I should have saved that seedling and used it in further line breeding. I considered the seedling a freak and ended up tossing it…if only I had known better.
I receive a plant of a repeat blooming R. glauca hybrid from a generous member here that I’ve collected seeds from. I’ll be growing them out and using the information here to work with them to line breed and select for the traits I’m looking for. As you wrote, kind of exciting really.
Thanks for your reply Jim
Your example makes perfect sense to me. I can see what you have done and how you are applying the line breeding methods. I can also see how you apply your methods to take advantage of generational progress.
Although an advocate of line breeding I am still surprised that the process worked so quickly with the (marmalade Skies x baby love) program. I assume this is the result of selecting “superior” parents in the first place.
Pierre, Thanks for your input
I would never claim one breeding method better than any other but I do think we are becoming paranoid about close breeding.
I dont suggest line breeding as an end in itself but only one pathway to acheive that end and I do beleive that outcrosses MUST be used regularly to maintain vigour in our plants. It is only a matter of personal choice whether we approach from one direction or the other.
My point is that we have such excellent sources of research material(including this forum) to use in making our choices of breeding material and if we keep up to date with what others are doing we should be able to make the "best"choices of breeding material
I would prefer to leave it to others(like yourself) to do the work needed to bring species into our genetic pool but I would happily use a plant of the widest species crosses imaginable if I thought it would enhance what I was trying to do. Probably, first, as an outcross, but if it was successful I would then start a new “line” with it and then move on from there.
The thing that attracts me to rose breeding is the availability of genetic material and the fact that the only restriction on the numbers we have to select from are self imposed.
We can raise plants by the thousands and select down to one or cull the lot and it really makes little difference to our costs. It is only our time and space that really limit what we can do. I can’t think of any other field where so much satisfaction can be gained in a small area with limited capital.
Russ
Just a few thoughts:
Simon, when you mentioned your Sweet Chariot x multiflora and that you got a very fine but very thorny plant,my first thought was, why didn’t Simon do it on a thornless multiflora. I like the idea of your crossing it in the future on a small multiflora also. I think the wave of the future is smaller plants as lot sizes decrease. Good luck; it sounds great.
Crossing with species or species crosses: I keep thinking, with the first species crosses, the early hybridizers did not have much available to work with but today we can repeat some of the species crosses using our very best and healthiest modern roses so that should be a big step forward.
Jim
The multiflora WAS thornless James… the thorns of the seed parent came through strongly though 
I don’t own any thorny multiflora. Only problem with this seedling is that I am unsure of the ID of the Sweet Chariot… it’s different to my other named ones from different sources… I have a feeling it’s either Baby Faraux or Raymond Privat… I don’t know for certain yet… trying to sort it out as we speak. They tell me Raymond Privat was never imported into Australia but Baby Faraux was but mine has a strong over powering fruity fragrance and it isn’t as double as SC… time will tell Either way a selfing might also bring thornlessness back out too
Jadae what was the title of that book? I do like old horticultural books. I find them interesting. Sometimes they have suggestions that seem weird but turn out true. I like reading about old varieties. Some of the old vegetables are very interesting.
I definitely can relate to the stigma of liking plants. Especially flowering plants. As a kid my brother used to make fun of me a lot and insist I was gay for it. Not that being gay is a bad thing but in school you would not want to be labeled as such especially at that time. Now days I mention it and people are shocked I discuss a few things but they do not seem very interested. Mostly they ask questions about gardening that are so vague. Like why is my plant dieing. Without being able to tell me what the plant is or give me even the smallest idea of the symptom. I offer to look at it but most of the time it is left at that they just want instant gratification on their problems I guess? I don’t know? Their are quite a bit of people around Fort Collins at least who are interested in plants. Either they are going to the college for it or they are growing something illegal. Pot heads are pretty smart if you catch them when not totally high. So their are quite a few that love plants or at least one plant around here. A far as genetics I have to come here or talk to my brother in laws brother about that. He breeds corn snakes and finds genetics of anything interesting. There is also a few people I know who work at the college that I can have interesting conversations with. It is definitely a different world here then in the other places I lived where I just looked weird. I was just glad I was good at football in high school.
I have noticed when looking up lineage that good plants often have the same grandparents. Have anyone noticed this? That they have a bunch of different roses but have this one link to each other. In my thinking I think it like the weeding saying have something new, something borrowed…Now if only we could find something blue to insure good luck on our unions. But it is hard to find modern roses that are not related at all. Especially when they fall into similar classes. So maybe the grandparent thing is just a coincidence.
Roses of the World in Color
by J. Horace McFarland, L.H.D.
1938
Houghton Mifflin Company
Boston and New York
There is a 1950s version too, I believe.
I really do love the Pernet colors. I just hate the plants, lol. I especially love the aged amber tones where some rusting of veinage overlays the top surface of the petals. I only know of one modern rose that does that, Bronze Sunset, which is too bad. The photos on HMF dont really show it very well but I grew it in person and I know it does. There is an old plant of what I think is Personality or Cover Girl growing like a giant weed by a gas station in St. Helens, Oregon. I would not doubt that it could be one of Von Abrams roses, who bred roses based on Pernet’s work in the town 8 miles down the highway. In either event, its definitely bred from Sutter’s Gold. I believe that Bronze Sunset is too. I would guess that it is Sutter’s Gold x Arizona, both are direct Pernet after-effects.
Yeah,
I know what lady online from Fort Collins. She is a pretty cool chick. She is a homemaker but is extremely smart and always up to creating all sorts of fun, smart things for her kids to do. She will post about some random vegan recipe one day and the next days he is posting pictures of some random state park, lol. The next days he could be discussing the fine points of Linux or modern psych. So, yeah, I gathered from her that people from that area were diverse.