Koko Loco, new introduction from last year, is thriving (a bit droopy on some blooms), color is holding, blooming all season long. No spray, no deadheading, no nothing - water once a week even in our 100+ degree weather.
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Koko Loco seems to do well here in the local rose park. Blooms very well in the middle of summer, when lots of stuff is taking a break, but is it fertile? and if it is does it pass on that color?
I wouldn’t think it would “pass on” that color. Look at the breeding. It mirrors Julia’s Rose…lavender “degenerated” by a golden yellow. If LeGrice’s observations continue holding true, I’d expect further crosses with mauves should produce a greater number of mauves. Crosses with other colors should probably bring out more pinks. He said homogenizing or building up of pigments resulted in silvery lavender to heavily grayed whites. Crossing with something which breaks up the homogenization results in browns, and further crosses with what he felt was the “Californica” line, gave stability to the browns with characteristic, short stemmed clusters.
If Blueberry Hill was the “building up” of the pigment, then Pot of Gold “broke down” the homogenization. More mauves (hopefully unrelated genetically) should reinforce the mauve side. Anything else should take it off in other directions.
Steve, I have had one here in OZ for 12mths under trial, mine held the color in Summer, but did not reach any sort of height, the stems in general were short, a couple of long one’s. Mine did not set any OP hips that I saw.
Kim, if it is no trouble what is the “Californica” line please ?
Hi David, the “Californica line” is a seedling LeGrice raised for breeding using whatever the British had as Californica at that time. There has been supposition that what was used may not have been Californica. Personally, I have no idea whether it was or not, but supposedly what was in commerce there during those decades was different from what is here.
The first evidence of that seedling I’ve found was in Lilac Charm. What was used as the pollen parent, I don’t know. From the patent, through HMF,
“The present rose plant was produced originally by the crossing of an unnamed seedling as a seed parent and an unnamed seedling as the pollen parent. The parentage goes back to a generation raised before World War II. Rosa Californica and Lavender Pinocchio, Plant Patent No. 947, were introduced into the stream the third and second generation back.”
From this, it would appear Lilac Charm would then figure in the breeding of the LeGrice russet roses, Vesper, Jocelyn, Victoriana, etc. This is what he claimed “stabilized” the brown and led to the short stemmed, cluster flowered form.
Agree with David - short stems, height of plant is 24" X 24" - no hips this year and nothing from the pollen but will keep trying.
At a philosophical level the actual identity of the species that LeGrice used in creating Lilac Charm is irrelevant. The important fact is that he used a species rose to effect an unexpected result.
It will be a long time until we have genetic tools that we can use to predict the phenotypes of potential crosses. Until then the only real leaps in progress will come from the ‘brute force’ approach of LeGrice, Moore, Carruth, Geshwind, Miller, Horvath, Tantau, Graf and the handful of other breeders who have had the brass to explore the vast potential locked up in species roses.
Kim, you are referencing statements by LeGrice that I think I have not read before (or maybe just forgot). Can you point me to an article?
Sure Don. Paul Barden archived it on his Old Garden Roses and Beyond, among other great articles there. (Thank you Paul!) LeGrice, “Unusual Color in Roses”.
This is probably a good place to recommend two of the most enjoyable, enlightening rose books I’ve read.
“Roses” by Jack Harkness, 1977. Marvelous in every way! Full of personal observation and historic knowledge, tremendously readable.
“Rose Growing Complete” by Edward Burton LeGrice. You want the later paperback edition instead of the 1965 hardback as it is much more “complete”, containing much more information on later introductions. Though, if the only edition available is the earlier hardback, it is well worth the price. Another “marvelous in every way” book. Also full of personal observation, historic knowledge and written in a wonderfully readable style. This contains two chapters I found especially interesting regarding a century of the Royal National Rose Society and a century of British seedling roses.
Both authors were well respected, well known for being “gentlemen”, and both honestly seemed like people I would have genuinely loved to have known. Great books by two great authors.
Thanks for the insightful feedback guys. While we are “talking” blue’s - do you guys have any experience with Heirloom? Great rose here in Texas - no diseases to speak of and holds color until spent.
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The chlorotic foliage as in your photo, is a common problem here. It can give OGR type shapes, scent and very unstable, muddy colors on rather disease prone foliage. It’s quite fertile and, from observation of the results, the basis of the majority of the J&P mauves.
Heat tolerant mauves; I am thinking could be akin to growing blue leaf hostas. I will experiment with just about anything and one of those has been hostas. Several years ago I read that the blue leaf variety seem to be less heat tolerant and although I do not have any now, in the past, the ones with light green and bicolor leaves seem to tolerate the heat the best. While good mauves are few and far between, heat tolerant ones are even more scarce. I have a Distant Drums that has survived two years and this spring I added Blue Girl which I used quite liberally as both seed and pollen parent with good hip set. I have had Outta the Blue, Heirloom and Royal Amythest in the past but they were in a very sunny location and did not survive. I think that the mauves benefit from a bit of shade in Texas. I have been working on the mauves and purples and do have a couple of seedlings that are doing nicely, one is Heritage X Outta the Blue which was just registered as RaeMae Renae. It is bright fuschia that fades to lavender and it seems to be pretty heat tolerant. I think there is plenty of room for experimenting with developing heat tolerant mauves.
Joan, by “heat tolerant”, are you meaning more the plant or blooms? For tolerance of anything, it’s quite difficult to beat Blue for You. At least here.
Thread jacking for a second, I purchased this book “Rose Growing Complete” by Edward Burton LeGrice, a while ago on the advice of Kim, a book that should be in everyone’s library, great reading. Thanks Kim.
Congratulations, David! I’m glad you obtained it. Didn’t LeGrice seem like someone you would have really loved to have known?
To be honest Kim there are a lot and you are one.
Why, thank you!
“Heat tolerant mauves…”
Kordes Novalis is a breakthrough rose: a mauve with far better health than all but a few HT and without all the failings so long linked with these shades.
The topic has strayed a bit from the original post but I I purchased Koko Loco as a new plant last year then decided to pass it on to a friend–it was just not to my taste. However, I did a few crosses with it just to check out fertility as a female. I don’t recall much about the plant but I do know there were some OP hips on it and I also have one seedling that has passed its second year with continued good health. While I was not trying to get any particular color and simply checking out fertility, I can say that the pink pollen parent (which is very healthy) passed on its pink color so Kim was probably right about the way the color of a plant like KL is quickly lost.
As said previously I have this rose under trial. If I am to keep it after the trial I post this question to the forum.
Can I back X it to something and hopefully retain the color or will I loose it ?
Following what LeGrice wrote, I would expect you would lose it, at least for a few generations until you recreate the type of gene sets required to produce it in the first place. If you also have something like Neptune under trial, or available, try crossing it with something in the golden yellow range you have available there. You might luck out and create something similar.