Jadae... Flower Carpet Scarlet OP seedlings

Michael,

You asked about what I got out of Flower Carpet Scarlet the other day thinking it might be a source of orange. These are all OP seeds that I germinated a few years back trying to test its germinability. The following year I put about 50 different pollens on it and they all failed except ‘Hot Chocolate’ and they didn’t germinate.

The first one is a creamy orange. I figured this one deserved to grow a little longer to see how it went. The leaves you can see that are marked are last years leaves (photo taken today). It kept them all through winter and now into summer and this is the only marks on them. Ithought that was pretty good. This is its second flower, not fully open yet but you get the idea.



I don’t have this one anymore. It didn’t survive when planted out. This was its first flower and is pretty close to the real colour.



This is probably going to be my next registration. The bush is well behaved and I find the flowers very appealing. The bush is also pretty much spotless too.



Flower Carpet Scarlet takes forever to bloom each season. We are 6 days into summer and it still hasn’t started flowering for me yet. I’ll be using it as a pollen parent this year seeing as it gave me grief as a seed parent last season… which I wasn’t expecting as the year before that it gave me a bumper crop of OP hips that germinated easily making these seedlings. I’m also assuming it is triploid.

So, I definately think oranges could be had without too much persuation from it.

Awesome. Thanks for sharing. We used to grow about 12,500 of Flower Carpet Scarlet. Both it and FC Amber, which came out in the US the same year, were decidedly different than the rest, which grew more horizontally – except for Flower Carpet White, which is nasty. FCW is more vertical and blackspots like no tomorrow. Also, the flowers hate rain. Flower Carpet Red is only marginally better. The growth is more appropriate but it blackspots and mildews, lol. FC Scarlet is definitely an improvement. FC Appleblossom is actually my Flower Carpet of choice of the whole series for landscape design. It is healthy, grows properly and adds a nice ethereal touch. Unfortunately for it, commercial sales favor eye bleed colors.

I would always tell the supervisors to only trim Scarlet and Amber slightly. We did not carry white. Someone made sure it disappeared in the same manner that Rhus and Physocarpus ‘Nana’ “disappeared” :slight_smile: I would also draw diagrams for everything, elsewise there was no proof they had explicit insructions. If there is one thing to know in both wholesale and commercial, it is to be able to easily backup yourself. They are industries of everyone pointing fingers everwhere but inward. So, yeah, I am definitely aware that FC Scarlet is a bit different. The one thing I strictly recall about it is that the tone is harsh, which is not really displayed on HMF. None of the photos really represent it clearly. One can clearly see that it is two overlying tones of a harsh orange and a harsh red-pink. Sometimes it has a faint touch of purple near the eye zone if you care to take the petals apart. Someone should see what it can do when crossed with mauve, lol.

Your info and pics save me a lot of time. Obviously, it is probably best as a pollen parent. FC Amber seems to be of a similar persuasion. I guess they are cursed like Baby Love is. I am curious if FC Scarlet would do well on climbers. For example, Dreaming Spires x FC Scarlet could be nice. DS is already really healthy and it sets seed like mad. FC Scarlet could be useful in giving it more modern scale, as well as perhaps some salmon tone. Climbing minis are nice in theory here, but they fail in practice. It is just too much vertical finite mass, leading to mass blackspot. True climbers with more appropriate scale for modern gardens would be nice. Another use with Flower Carpet Scarlet, assuming that it is tetraploid, is that it seems like it can be bred directly into modern floribundas and shrubs. It does not have as much of the wichurana foliage that Pink has, but the foliage feels like plastic, which is generally helpful. I wish there was a study out (maybe I missed one?) that showed relative foliar disease tolerance vs. foliage cell mass structure, as opposed to strictly resistance via genetics. I have always felt that genetic resistance + a highly defensive cellular structure would be pretty awesome. The one thing regarding the latter, which I have seen, is that even though the mature growth is iron clad, the new growth can be prone. I have seen this with blackspot in my own ‘Rock Creek’, as well as a watermelon pink seedling of it with Cherry Meidiland. Anyways, lol, I think FC Scarlet could be useful in both aspects. It has a definite rigidity to its foliage.

The unfortunate thing with this tribe though is the lack of fragrance. Yellow Brick Road is highly fragrant in Portland. I have no clue why, and my gf verified it since my nose is weird, but it is very snifferific yet it has the typical wichurana brand to it from the Flower Carpet lineage. It smells like Golden Masterpiece x_X. Kordes has some floribundas from the FC series. Theyre nice but they really miss the mark aesthetically. There is something about them that makes them entirely easy to miss while walking by. I am not sure if it is the way the flowers are displayed on the plant, the contrast of the deep green foliage or what, but it is something to be aware of when working with this series. I passed by a display of various cultivars @ Washington Park. I walked by them on several trips before even noticing they existed. They almost had that affect that azaleas do – you only notice they exist when they are in their prime. Maybe the foliage is too nice! Blush Flower Circus on HMF seems to mirror the experience. It is really easy to pass over.

I also wonder how it would behave when mixed with diploid/triploid types, especially if it is itself triploid. The selfs do seem like they are peonin-rich like many diploid reds similar to it, such as Happy, Red Fairy, or Bukavu. A healthy does of pelargonidin mixed with the other reds is usually helpful in making reds more rich and colorfast. It would be cool if it could be passed into diploids via FCS rather than having to deal with the mildew-messed that the orange diploid polyanthas are.

A lot of possibilities and pitfalls to consider. Thanks.

Here is one I missed. Talk about an odd combo but it might be nice.

The foliage shape reminds me of something I disliked a long time ago but I cannot recall what. Old Port maybe? I dont know. I still think something mauve or purple x FC Scarlet would be interesting to experiment with.

Something mauve or purple is what I tried last season with it as a seed parent (and failed). The purples I tried were ‘Route 66’, Wild Rover’, ’ Sweet Chariot’, ‘Ebb Tide’, ‘Rhapsody in Blue’, ‘Ann Endt’, ‘Othello’, and ‘Tuscany’. They all failed so this season I’ll put it onto ‘Route 66’, ‘Sweet Chariot’, and ‘Wild Rover’ and maybe some of my ‘Ebb Tide’ seedlings that have all turned out dark purple; some with fewer petals that remind me of ‘Midnight Blue’ which may prove more productive in the pollen dept. (I find ‘Ebb Tide’ a PITB to work with). If we are talking about strange mixes I was toying with the idea od putting it with ‘William Lobb’ too but the two won’t flower at the same time; ‘William Lobb’ is about finished and FCS is about to start. If ‘Sympathie’ flowers for me it will go onto this as well. I have ‘Old Port’ as well and was thinking there may be something in this one. I noticed Robert has used it to some effect already.

With climbers and FCS, I was thinking ‘New Dawn’ might be somethnig to think about for me in Australia given its Tea and wichurana background.

FCS seems to throw back to FCP type foliage as well. This is the single pink seedling above on HMF. Check out its foliage. It looks and feels like the leaves have been clear-coated in epoxy: Plant Search

Oh yeah… FC Appleblossom is a great little rose, very popular here as a weeping standard where the subtle dappled pink tones are held up and shown to great effect. It is also very fertile and produces lots of OP hips though I have never tried germinating them as it is a sport of FCP and so would probably breed the same as it. I’ve used FCP a bit this season with more shrubby roses with the view of adding wichurana and a bit of height (my FCP x ‘Mutabilis’ didn’t germinate last season though). Despite its gaudy colour it’s still probably my favourite, though I’m kind of partial to all of them. FCW doesn’t spot at all for me here and seems fairly weather tolerant. Yellow does Ok for me and it’s kind of growing on me. Red is… well… I don’t have much nice to say about it yet. I’ve had it two years from a small cutting and it refuses to bulk up for me, it doesn’t set seed, and it is stingy with its pollen despite producing anthers that just scream boink me… and it spots for me… so I’m a little underwhelmed by it at present.

I also just remembered a really bizarre cross I did last season that actually took and that I was really looking forward to until some critter ate the hip >:@ I chucked a bit of flower carpet white pollen onto ‘Golden Chersonese’ LOL not really thinking about anything in particular… just wondering around the garden and slapping it on everything with a flower LOL

Holy crap, your soil is so vastly different than mine!

Old Port might be okay here. It was seriously blackspot rabid and vigorless here. I tend to avoid anything with Eyepaint in it with passion. Blackspot follows it for generations, which is funny since McGredy’s US introductions were targeted for my area.

I wonder what your seedling’s ploidy is. Likewise, New Dawn is a fertile triploid, so it may prove interesting if both are fertile triploids.

Holy crap, your soil is so vastly different than mine!

Old Port might be okay here. It was seriously blackspot rabid and vigorless here. I tend to avoid anything with Eyepaint in it with passion. Blackspot follows it for generations, which is funny since McGredy’s US introductions were targeted for my area.

I wonder what your seedling’s ploidy is. Likewise, New Dawn is a fertile triploid, so it may prove interesting if both are fertile triploids.

Yep red dirt… gotta love it… I don’t mulch seedlngs I’m testing… they are in boot camp and get no mulch or anything like the other roses get… they are on their own. The red lateritic dirt is, however, so fertile you could grow a baby in it. Perfect rose soil really :slight_smile:

haha, “rose boot camp”. I love it. That is, in essence, what I do. I overcrowd seedlings on purpose though. I give them minimal slow release only, unless it is year 4, which is when I skip chemical fertilizers altogether. It probably is slightly morbid, and I can hear my hort. prof. yelling at me now, but it has worked wonders for me. We had red soil in the Black Hills of South Dakota but it was definitely different than yours. I recall seeing it frequently in Wyoming as well. NW Oregon’s soil is often think, wet, dark clay and with bits of small rocks every 6 inches, haha. There is often a small percent of silt but not a lot at all It is wonderful if it isnt August, which is when it turns into waterproof pottery :stuck_out_tongue: I am glad it is clay thoough. If it was sand, Oregon and Washington would be in the ocean :slight_smile: Everything “melts” in the winter due to the non-stop precip, hence the very smooth, calm contours in the Pacific NW. Gravity is king.

You’re describing Ralph’s “test by stress” methods. hehehe

“Gravity is king”

Yup! Take a look at any former “star”. LOL!

The top creamy one has opened white. Rain has destroyed it, and every other flower in the place…

In hot weather the creamy white one stays creamy (taken this afternoon):

Thats wonderful. The tone is really pleasing. It sure is nicer than Flower Carpet White. I am not sure as to what would be a better choice than using Margaret Merril for creating a white to cream or pearl-toned wichurana-type shrublet but FC White is a disaster, lol. MM is wonderful in its own right, as a flora-tea type that smells great, despite its health and weather-prone issues, but it doesnt really have much of a place for something that requires durability. There is a very tricky balance between aesthetic/charm and plant health/bloom duability when it comes to the wichurana types. It is very easy to leave them looking as harsh as a 2x4.

I’ve been thinking about this white-wichurana shrub challenge and have been trying a few things… with limited success…

First I thought I’d get ‘White Meidiland’ (MEIcoublan) to use but I have developed an intense dislike of this rose. It has the most unattractive growth habit of anything I’ve seen. It doesn’t know whether it wants to be a ground cover or shrub putting long branches out in every direction like a medusa. It’s disease resistance here is terrible and you have to try really hard to get flowers to look good… mostly they are brown and soggy because they hate wind, rain, sun… basically they hate life. It doesn’t form hips and it is stingy with the pollen. I don’t know why I haven’t shovel pruned it yet… maybe tomorrow will be the day LOL.

Then I acquired ‘Snow Carpet’ to try because it is v. pretty and healthy too. So far I have not been successful in getting it to stick to anything and it is stingy with its pollen, though to be fare when the flowers are that small you’re gonna struggle to enough pollen anyway. I’ve got anthers drying now from about 10 flowers tonight and am looking at the pitiful amount of anthers and thinking why I bother to pursue this line… maybe thios year will be the year it works :slight_smile:

I started seeing a common link with these two in ‘Temple Bells’. I’m really glad I got this rose. I started thinking I would go back before ‘Snow Carpet’ and ‘White Meidiland’ and try my own mixes. I loves to breed and loves pollen from anything you put on it. Trouble is, it also loves to breed pinks. So far everything I’ve got out of it has been a shade of pink. There’s an interesting little seedling that is just starting to try and make a move that is ‘Temple Bells’ x ‘Lamarque’ that will be interesting. It’s a real late bloomer, in the non-flowering sense, as it just sat in the pot as this tiny stunted runty looking seedling that only escaped culling because it always got overlooked and in the last two weeks it has just perked up and decided to grow.

I’m thinking I’m going to breed within the wichurana to try for a good white and am going to try the Yellow Flower Carpet with ‘Temple Bells’. Also, I’m going to put rugosa ‘alba’ on it… thinking Max Grafish kind of seedling without the fertility hang-ups of ‘Max Graf’ and maybe a good white… maybe ‘Scheezwerg’ woulkd be worth a shot instead of, or as well as, r. ‘alba’. ‘Popcorn’ is also on my list of things to do with ‘Temple Bells’… I think that could be awesome.

‘Temple Bells’ is starting to look like a Christmas tree with all the tags hanging off it now… but the good thing is it makes hundreds of flowers to play with… such a great rose!

Another idea I can’t get out of my head, that screams to me ‘run away’ is to boink 'Temple Bells with ‘Iceberg’… I must try harder to forget this idea… it can only end badly… ‘Margaret Merril’ is a pretty ordinary rose here… I like the idea of using ‘Tineke’ too.

Any other ideas for really good white shrubs?

“though to be fare”… or fair even rolls eyes

So many typos… I loves to breed LOL well yes… I do… but that’s not what I meant to say LOl… I = It! LOL

Yeah, there is no need to start with white. Its a “color” thats like default. It was always exist. The existance in any given match is just relative, is all. Yellow, pink and true mauve are the easiest pathways. Personally, the difficult color is that rare sspectrum of shades between french vanilla or pearl. I have met few who do not like that spectrum, and they tend to be more resistant to the elements. I HATE HATE HATE the plant of French Lace (its a dwarf Brandy – awful) but there is something to be said for the blooms.

Tineke is the best white HT I have ever seen in Oregon every. I grew it for a decde and it was consistantly wonderful. It was only about 4’ tall but it sent out basals 24/7, bloomed all the time, had consistantly nice 4" blooms, wintered well and did not require spraying for blackspot. It was virtually female sterile for me but I see some have used it successfully. I have no idea why Tineke, a florist rose, performed better than even some landscape roses here, but it did. I have never seen a HT that “full” before either. It was essentially a 4 x 4’ ball of white HT blooms on moderate length stems. Its an excellent archetype, and maybe even worthwhile in crossing with Buck types. Bucks are universally lacking white. Chorale is about as good as it gets, and it is not all that white. The issue with Tineke with wichurana types, though, is that they require cluster formation. Otherwise, they can look stark, especially with such plastic foliage. They require aesthetic balance or they look harsh.

You also may want to fall back onto Flower Carpet itself. Personally, Flower Carpet Apple Blossom is prettier. It was as healthy as the original in a wholesale setting.

Simon, what is your email – divided up so that bots cannot absorb it?

That’s ok Simon, we read between the lines! HeHe

Merry Christmas!

Jadae,

I haven’t grown it nor personally seen it but I believe Buck’s Paloma Bianca is a white and reputedly very healthy too.

Jim