It is invalid for Rosa laevigata to cross any rose in the garden as a father

This year, I tried to cross any rose in the garden with Rosa laevigata as the father. I know that roses and Rosa laevigata are incompatible with pollination. I still look forward to harvesting some fruits, but I can’t get any. Ask you what roses can bear fruit with Rosa laevigata?

I plan to use R Try rouletti, R Rouletii is said to be compatible with all roses, hoping that the first generation of children can have abundant flowers, short stature, disease resistance, and strong fragrance. This may require screening a large number of offspring, R Roulettii will have Powdery mildew and black spot, while Rosa laevigata is immune to all diseases, which is too huge

I also thought of other affinity roses and tea, but they are too big, and I don’t want roses to have huge non blooming children.

Rosa laevigata has a strong fragrance, and the stamens picked are also very fragrant, with the fragrance of osmanthus

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If you have a Premium Membership to Help Me Find-Roses, you can research what offspring there are of Laevigata. Dr. Robert Basye raised his Probable Amphidiploid 86-3 (Banksiae X Laevigata), which is a rather lovely monster. Some ovaries are spiny, others aren’t. The foliage is glossy and the flowers are very large, single and white. It’s pollen has been fertile in my experience. It sets seed and friends have raised some of the selfs. Robert Rippetoe out in the CA desert raised a seedling of Ducher X Laevigata; and one of his Riverbanks X Laevigata. Luther Burbank raised several hybrids of it using pollen from Crimson Rambler. There are a number of others, both historic and modern.


Eric, I wish you much success in your Laevigata crosses! I have had my eye on that one for a while. It seems to hold so much potential for those of us in hot climates. But it’s just way too big!
Adding to the ones listed by Kim Rupert above, there is also Anemone, which is Laevigata × Tea, bred by Schmidt in 1896. Unfortunately it seems that one is also a giant climbing thing. But it shows that it is also possible to cross with Teas.
It would be amazing to see a cross with Rouletti. If you ever manage to get something small out of Laevigata, or even a medium sized shrub, I would jump at the chance to buy a rose like that.
Edit: just noticed your request was about compatible seed parents only, sorry I read too fast. Anyway, best of luck!

Thank you for your suggestion. I have a member and have read it before. You are all right. The online records only include a few Rosa hybrids, tea, Rosa banksiae, Rosa multiflora, and Rosa riverbanks (with Rosa banksiae, old blur, Rosa California bloodline). There are almost no records of rose hybridization. I thought all hybrid roses would always receive a few fruits, but in reality, there is not a single fruit, It means that Rosa laevigata is not compatible with modern roses. I know it’s not compatible. At least leave me a few fruits. Almost all the varieties in the garden use Rosa laevigata as their father. It’s sad that there isn’t even one compatible variety.

I know that other Rosa and tea are also compatible with Rosa laevigata. It is estimated that the first generation of children will be huge and only bloom once a year, which is not what I want to see. In addition, hybrid seedlings may take several years to mature and blossom, and you need to spend more time to study and observe.

Everyone knows that old brush is a good breeding material, which can break all kinds of Rosa incompatibility problems. Maybe the first generation can repeat flowering. Of course, the first generation of children will also bring black spot and Powdery mildew. You can screen out the traits of the first generation you need. However, the main body of the post is Rouletti, which is a reduced version of old brush, I hope Rouletti can have offspring with (Rosa laevigata, Rosa xanthina Lindl, Rosa rugosa) that are short, flowering, disease resistant, and fragrant

Thank you for your blessing. The experiment will be conducted next year, and the post has been updated and replied. You can take a look. I think rouletii is the most suitable material for hybridization with Rosa, and I hope the offspring will be shorter than the children of Old Blush.

Rosa laevigata is difficult to use, but not impossible. I’ve used it on ‘Fru Dagmar Hastrup’ and got 40+ seedlings, but there’s some genetic incompatibility in rugosa/laevigata hybrids that results in seedling death. I watched them all die one after the other.
The two hybrids I do have still alive from laevigata are R. wichuriana thornless x R. laevigata and ‘Faith Whittlesey’ x R. laevigata, neither of which has flowered yet.
So go for it, you might get lucky :slightly_smiling_face:


I’ve had that with other Rugosa and species crosses also. I think sometimes the physical qualities of both parents combine in a wrong way, creating weak offspring.

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R. Wichurina is too huge, and Faith Whittlesey’s success may have come from tea. My friend told me good news, Sunshine Babylon Eyes x Eyes for You x laevigata, which has been bearing fruit for several months now. I think compatibility may come from Rosa Persica.

I have read similar complaints in other places, but I do have one note that Luther Burbank successfully crossed R. rugosa x R. sinica. This was included in a list of double-flowered Rugosa hybrids.
In addition I saw a suspicious plant at the San Jose Heritage garden that looks like ‘Anemone’ but reblooms.

Furthermore, on one occasion I saw an odd sport on one cane.
Compare with the normal cane.

More reports:
Rosa laevigata hybrids

American Rose Annual, 16: 45-51 (1931)
Breeding Better Roses
Rev. George M. A. Schoener, Santa Barbara, Calif.

Eliminating mildew seems also possible through a new strain of hybrid Laevigata roses. Heretofore, it was claimed that R. laevigata, better known as Cherokee, does not make seed, and that other species and types would not take its pollen. Such is not the case, as hundreds of combinations were made with Laevigata as seed-bearer, using pollen from Hybrid Teas, Teas, Hybrid Perpetuals, and Pernetianas. Pollen of Laevigata used on Gigantea has proved that even the Gigantea foliage can be improved, making it much more rigid and glossy, a sure preventive of mildew. In the face of such success it is surely deplorable that the continuation of this experiment is most doubtful. Without further support, these far-reaching experiments are doomed, the more so as it is unlikely that Dr. Crocker will be able to take care of the germination work for the second generation, if nobody else finds it worth while to help push the work to a completion where it would be possible to write out reliable, mathematically correct findings to become the basis for others to carry on systematic rose-breeding.

Rural New Yorker, 67: 788 (Oct 10, 1908)
Walter Van Fleet (1908)

AUTHENTIC CHEROKEE HYBRIDS.—Notwithstanding the vigorous growth of the Cherokee rose under favorable conditions it appears difficult to produce artificial hybrids of sufficient vitality to grow to flowering size. We have made many crossings on the Rural Grounds, using a typical plant for the seed parent, and fertilizing with pollen from many desirable garden roses and rose species. There is little difficulty in growing the resulting hybrid seedlings for a season or two, but even with the most careful glasshouse treatment they decline and die before the blooming age is reached. We have propagated some of the most promising by cuttings, and have even budded them on the parent Cherokee but without success, all perishing without bloom, though canes six feet long have been produced. The only exceptions are two plants of Cherokee x Frau Karl Druschki, a white Hybrid Perpetual, that are now entering their third year with some promise of continued growth. A very striking common feature of the hundred or more Cherokee hybrids we have grown is the entire disappearance of the characteristics of the mother plant. In no instance were the hooked prickles and narrow glossy foliage of Cherokee reproduced. The general type even when pollen from the most diverse sorts was used, is dwarf and bushy, with slender straight thorns or spines and foliage of the character of the pollen parent. One exception was produced by pollen of Marshal Niel, the well-known climbing yellow rose of northern greenhouses. This hybrid had hooked spines and intermediate foliage. Several propagations of it were made and buds inserted in various stocks, some growing strongly for a season or two, but all died without producing a flower, though one of the best plants was sent to a careful California grower for trial.

MR. HOCKRIDGE’S HYBRID—Mr. Hockridge has obtained under the favoring skies of California an authentic blend of Cherokee with Gloire des Rosomanes, a tall-growing red Remontant, introduced as far back as 1825. He describes the bloom as small, yellowish white, and disappointing, but with the possibility of paving the way for something better. He wonders where the yellow comes from when pollen of a red rose is used on the white Cherokee. As yellow also predominates in the immature blooms of Silver Moon, which came from using Cherokee pollen on a white-flowered species, as well as in Rosa Fortuneana, the presumed hybrid with the white Banksian rose, it would appear quite dominant in the immediate offspring of Cherokee. The yellow coloring of the stamens is intense in the type, and may spread to the corolla in the hybrid seedlings.

Burbank’s 1918 offering of twentieth century: fruits, flowers and various economic plants p. 16

Cathay: Cherokee and Crimson Rambler cross. Extra strong grower and profuse bloomer. Single flowers deep rose-pink, in clusters, each blossom 1 1/2 inches in diameter. Does not fade and does not mildew. Field grown plant, each, $1.

Garland: Cherokee and Crimson Rambler cross. Strong grower, fine foliage, does not mildew. Flowers of a light shell-pink color in enormous clusters; each cluster a perfect bouquet which lasts, without fading, for a long time. Field grown plant, each, $1.

New Creations in Fruits and Flowers (June 1893) p. 38
Rugosa Hybrids, etc.

Besides the Roses before described, a climbing pink Rose is attracting attention. It received a medal from the California State Floral Society. Also some extra fine large double Rugosa Hybrids from Rugosa X Gen. Jacqueminot, Rugosa X La France, Rugosa X Paul Neyron, Rugosa X Banksia, Rugosa X Sinica and other crosses. These, though lacking in the lasting qualities of most roses, are, in brilliancy of color, unexcelled.

The Garden 49: 488-489 (June 27, 1896)
*A paper by the Rt. Hon. Lord Penzance in “The Rosarian’s Year-Book,” 1895.

“Another experiment must be recorded which up to the present time has not met with success. The beautiful glossy foliage of the Rosa camelliaefolia [laevigata] is very inviting to the eye of the hybridiser, and if I could only transfer this foliage to some of our Hybrid Perpetuals, I should consider it a useful triumph. But I could not get the camelliaefolia to flower. From what I have read in the gardening publications I conclude that other people have met with the same difficulty. At last my opportunity came. The splendid sunny season of 1893 ripened the wood of my plant so thoroughly, that in 1894 it gave me twenty flowers. Two of these I treated with the pollen of other plants, but obtained no hips. The remaining eighteen I reserved for pollen, with which I fertilised the blooms of numerous Hybrid Perpetuals. I had a good crop of seed, and I have, perhaps, a hundred plants. In vain have I looked for a shiny leaf. Many of the seedlings have a foliage inclining that way, and certainly different from that of the seed parent, but none (unless as they grow up they put on a more glossy appearance) carry the true Camellia-like leaf which was the object of my quest.”


There is a possibility that temperature or sugar may play a role in cross-fertility?

Heslop-Harrison (1921)

“I therefore got up earlier, at 4 a.m. (GMT), before any insects were at work, when I found that even then every newly expanded R. pimpinellifolia had its stigmas powdered with pollen from its own overarching stamens. At the same time those of R. mollis, R. omissa and R. Lintoni were quite untouched.”

In this case it seems very unlikely that R. pimpinellifolia would be pollinated by the neighboring species.

William Paul (1848)

“According to the statements of M. Boitard, there is scarcely any limit to the variation of Roses produced from seed. He affirms that M. Noisette, a French cultivator, has never sown seeds of the Chinese Roses (R. INDICA) without raising some Scotch Roses (R. SPINOSISSIMA) from them. He states, This fact is not supported by a solitary occurrence, but has been frequently observed by that cultivator, and is further attested by the evidence of M. Laffay, who has raised seedlings on an extensive scale, and has this year between 200,000 and 300,000.”

Assuming that Noisette’s R. spinosissima behaves like Harrison’s R. pimpinellifolia, then we may assume that the self-fertilized flowers have enough left-over pollen to be carried to Chinese roses that become receptive later in the day.

Končalová (1975)

*"*Mameli Calvino (1951) tried concentrations from 5 to 50% for a few species and many cultivars, though not all concentrations were used for all plants under study. She considered 20% saccharose to be the best medium. Comparing our results with hers we can conclude that the pollen of some roses could probably germinate better in higher concentrations; for example, for the 5, 10 and 20% saccharose [sucrose] concentrations the percentage of germinating pollen grains was given as follows: 20, 20 and 32 % in R. foetida, 15, 15 and 26% in R. laevigata, 50, 75 and 82% in R. odorata."

This author does report some temperature effects in relation to sucrose concentration, but nothing immediately useful.

I have not yet found any research into the temperature preference of R. laevigata. The following item discussing R. x fortuniana allows some inference. I have not seen any suggestion that R. banksiae has any need for high temperatures. I can only guess that this heat requirement comes from R. laevigata. Whether this translates to a need for high temperatures for pollination is another matter.

Francis (2010)

“It happens, though, R. fortuniana has roots adapted to delving into sand and plants grafted onto this stock in Perth are some of the finest to be seen. Unfortunately, I was told, budding onto fortuniana is no easy matter. Perversely, the buds will not take unless the task is performed during hot weather, in fact, very hot weather. On warm days when the temperature is in the low 30s, the take is barely passable; on high 30s days perhaps acceptable. However, budding onto fortuniana during a heat wave, when temperatures are in the 40s, or even better, the high 40s, results in the cultivar buds clamping to root stock stems with barnacle-like tenacity.”

Does anyone have experience grafting/budding onto R. laevigata?

I’ve not grafted on Laevigata, but climate can definitely affect fertility. Mermaid doesn’t set seed in hot inland heat but will set it in cool coastal conditions. Iceberg behaves similarly. I never had much hip set on any of the MANY dozens of Icebergs I regularly groomed in the hot valleys. Here at “the beach”, it’s a veritable fruiting plant. Nearly every flower results in a hip with seeds.

I was rearranging my notes to get the rootstock articles grouped together. While at it, I found one by Dr. Hume (1921) that I had scanned but hadn’t got around to finishing. Of course, this is the one with the info I needed about Rosa laevigata.

“The Double Cherokee [Fortuneana] is difficult to root, and on account of its thin bark, difficult to graft. The common White Cherokee is more easily handled in these particulars; in fact, there is little left to be desired. It is next to impossible to work other varieties on it by budding; it must be grafted.”

Judging from another reference, (I can’t find it now that I need it), the thin bark is likely derived from R. banksiae.

If so, then R. laevigata should be easier to bud in heat. If only I had some Cherokee rose wood to work on. The temperature outside is just about right for budding. But I’d rather stay inside by the air conditioner.

Warren Millington reported Banksiae is used for standards in China. It may still be searchable here on this form. Yes, here it is. Banksiae as root stock?

I got so caught up looking for more info on Laevigata’s need for heat that I lost the thread.

My thinking is that a species needing high temps to get its sap moving and bark loose, may also need heat to bloom, push up nectar and germinate its pollen.

Lord Penzance (1896) wrote:

“The splendid sunny season of 1893 ripened the wood of my plant so thoroughly, that in 1894 it gave me twenty flowers.”

So, extra heat is necessary for flowering.

“The remaining eighteen I reserved for pollen, with which I fertilised the blooms of numerous Hybrid Perpetuals. I had a good crop of seed, and I have, perhaps, a hundred plants. In vain have I looked for a shiny leaf. Many of the seedlings have a foliage inclining that way, and certainly different from that of the seed parent, but none (unless as they grow up they put on a more glossy appearance) carry the true Camellia-like leaf which was the object of my quest.”

Laevigata influence was visible in Penzance’s plants, but not dominant.

Van Fleet (1908):

“A very striking common feature of the hundred or more Cherokee hybrids we have grown is the entire disappearance of the characteristics of the mother plant. In no instance were the hooked prickles and narrow glossy foliage of Cherokee reproduced. The general type even when pollen from the most diverse sorts was used, is dwarf and bushy, with slender straight thorns or spines and foliage of the character of the pollen parent. One exception was produced by pollen of Marshal Niel, the well-known climbing yellow rose of northern greenhouses. This hybrid had hooked spines and intermediate foliage.”

As in Penzance’s report, Laevigata influence is slight whether the species is seed or pollen parent. Would the crosses be more successful in a hotter climate?

There is certainly evidence that temperature can determine whether a cross is successful or not; and whether seeds will be viable or require embryo rescue. For example, Schoener (1931) raised a wide range of hybrids with Laevicgata as seed parent, with the help of Dr. Crocker who managed the germination work. It is worth noting that Schoener and Burbank, both in California, were more successful than experimenters in other regions.

Here are some other examples of environmental conditions apparently affecting the success of crosses.

F1 cotton hybrids strongly resemble the parent most adapted to the local conditions.

Seeds from Gladiolus tristis as pollen parent would not germinate when pollination temperature was too high.

“Koelreuter, Gaertner, and Focke observed that the hybrids of Digitalis purpurea crossed with D. lutea produced, in addition to a more or less constant intermediate form, a number of forms very different in appearance. Focke observed among the hybrids which grew spontaneously from a cross-fertilized capsule that he had neglected to harvest when ripe, a number of aberrant forms, the most remarkable of them resembling in all particulars a different species (Digitalis tubiflorum). All artificially produced hybrids of these two species have been found to be completely sterile to the pollen of the parent species. The hybrids also occur in nature, in which case they are said to sometimes bear seed.”

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Fortuniana demands heat to root and push scions, too. In coastal cool, it flowers at the expense of growth. It will callus here but it will not push roots. It will heal chip grafts but it refuses to push growth from them. Back in the old climate where the average December temp was 80 F and triple digit summer heat was common, it rooted and pushed buds like crazy.

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There should have been plenty of heat where Van Fleet was working, and it sounds like his crosses were amply successful–it’s only the puzzling phenotypes of the seedlings that were being remarked about. Of course, in the same area, R. laevigata seems to need winter protection in order to to overwinter successfully enough to flower, so Van Fleet’s parent plants would probably have been kept in a greenhouse for at least the dormant season. They might have been allowed to flower there as well. For whatever it’s worth, R. banksiae, R. ×fortuneana, and R. bracteata are all fully hardy in the same climate.

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Well, there is heat, and then there’s HEAT. I’m living through a brutal southern California summer with the thermometer pushing 110F most days. That’s what I mean by HEAT. And that’s the kind of heat the Australian writer recommended for budding xFortuniana. This is more heat than I would expect in Van Fleet’s Maryland garden, even in a greenhouse.

I wanted to include another source, but couldn’t find it. I’ve had it since 2002, but never got around to putting it on my web page.
This one deals specifically with Sunflower (Helianthus) hybrids, but the “partial hybrid” phenomenon is more wide spread that commonly thought.
When the common Sunflower is pollinated by one of its diploid relatives, the hybrid offspring are overwhelmingly similar to the seed parent, but not precisely. And tests prove that SOME of the paternal DNA is retained.
This phenomenon might explain how Tantau’s cross between ‘Baby Chateau’ and R. roxburghii gave hybrids with no obvious traits of the pollen parent except disease resistance … and maybe some extra vigor. I’ve seen the three offspring, but not ‘Baby Chateau’, so I can’t say for sure.

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It seems important to point out that temperatures don’t tend to be quite that hot where the species grows naturally. Unless the species isn’t actually adapted where it is native, it doesn’t quite follow that inland California levels of heat should be needed for it to flower and reproduce successfully. The fact remains that Van Fleet had success getting hybrid seedlings from it, so clearly, temperatures were not a significant limiting factor.

Ours is not exactly a cool-summer climate, reaching 90 degrees or higher for quite a few (now 49, somewhat fewer in Van Fleet’s time) days per year on average. Van Fleet’s greenhouses would have easily exceeded 110 degrees, were they permitted to do so (whitewashing and venting would normally be employed to avoid such temperatures).


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I recently considered the possibility that higher humidity might lower the “bark-slip” temperature. I kept looking and found what seemed like a helpful bit on Laevigata.

The author went through the "be patient* method for germinating seeds, then this:

“One possible way to reduce this time is to scarify the seed and then place it for 2-3 weeks in damp peat at a temperature of 27-32°c (by which time the seed should have imbibed).”

Okay. That’s more like it. But my hope soon vanished.

“It is then kept at 3°c for the next 4 months by which time it should be starting to germinate.”

Somehow I can’t imagine Vietnam providing four months of frost.

I’m still puzzling on the general loss of Laevigata’s climbing habit unless the other parent is a climber. Ordinarily the once-blooming trait blocks rebloom from the other parent, and releases the hidden climbing habit. ‘Constance Spry’ is a modern example.

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I remembered another odd fact that might have relevance. South East Asia endured a thousand-year drought that ended around 5,000 years ago. This might explain Laevigata’s tolerance for hot, dry weather.

Jour Roy Hort Soc 27: 507-509 1902/03.
Notes on Chinese Roses

The third Chinese species of this group [Banksianae] is the so-called ‘Cherokee’ Rose, R. laevigata; this frequently proved tender and flowered sparingly in the neighbourhood of London, but of recent years stocks have been received from Japanese sources which prove hardier and more floriferous than those—probably of Chinese origin—previously in cultivation.

The idea that cross-compatibility is an indicator of botanical affinity goes back to the mid-19th century. It is often valid … or close enough. Lewis & Basye (1961) worked on this assumption.

A competing idea offered by William Herbert also gained some attention at the time, because it also worked well enough in other genera. For instance, the genus Crinum has two well marked sections. One has flowers with radial symmetry. Flowers of te other section are zygomorphic (left/right mirror symmetry. Crinum americanum has radial flowers and grows in shallow water. C. bulbispermum of South Africa also lives in wet-lands and has zygomorphic flowers.

The hybrids are viable and fertile. Crossing a wet-land species with a closely allied xerophyte would not be so successful.

But before we get lost in hypothetical genes, I must mention that Luther Burbank also worked with Crinums from around the world. He had no particular trouble with incompatibility and sterility. His “secret” seems to have been that he received his plants as seeds. He then planted them all in his garden. Herbert, on the other hand, had money. He was Dean of Manchester, and son of Lord Carnarvon. He paid collectors to travel the world, finding mature specimens to send back to England. Seedlings are better.

Apparently, much of “constitution” is acquired during a plant’s early life.

And that brings me back to the possibility that specimens of Rosa laeviata already acclimated to Japan might be more cooperative in the not-so-hot regions of the U.S.