I’m having trouble locating a source with Black Magic in stock. In my searches in HMF I found a couple other deep reds with black tones and am looking for input on these two. I’ve read that Ink Spots flowers will decrease in size in heat. How is disease resistance and fertility for both?
I don’t know if I mentioned why I’m looking for a deep red with black tones or not yet. I looking for HT type bloom that’s deep red with black tones on petals and in bud to breed with Illusion. I’m hoping for offspring with that color, HT type bloom on a healthy and hardy shrub. Fragrance would be awesome but probably not likely. Would appreciate any thoughts.
Rob
Ink Spots is AWFUL. Its just bad, dont bother. I dont know anything about Will Rogers.
One avenue you may pursue is importing pollen from exhibitors that post on HMF. I bet some of them may also have Blackout, which may have better stems. Some of the Rosarian Corner folks that like to show and buy the SE US roses a lot would likely be happy to help.
Black Magic should be easily attainable. Its almost always found at local nurseries by May at the latest. However, I am unsure if JP’s downfall will muddle this. I do not see it on their web page this year. Regan would be your swiftest choice, since the import their sales from elsewhere:
Heirlooms has Madame Delbard, which should breed similarly to Black Magic.
Ink Spots was a decent plant in a climate similar to what it was bred and selected for, but not something I would have wanted to use myself. Ollie Weeks LOVED red HTs and that was his forte. Will Rogers had a glorious flower on a plant suitable for the 1930s. Black spot and mildew plagued it when they were problems, which fortunately, wasn’t that often there and then. I wouldn’t touch either one here where they are more of a daily issue.
While I fully understand the appeal of going back to something historic, I’d think the 80 years of selection improvement since the introduction of WR would count for much. It seems like it would have you starting in a hole, facing repeating the selection which has been done for you.
What appears interesting from the Week’s or Star lists this year? I don’t know if they’re available where you are, but they are here. Come up with a few names and I’ll be willing to hit the nursery and mail them to you if you can’t find them locally.
Change of subject…
Interesting how a “defect” can become something desirable, isn’t it? Kim
Link: www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.61284.1
Thanks Michael. I’ve ordered Black Lady through Burlington and Queen Bee from Heirloom. Hopefully those two combined with Illusion…and maybe Quadra even…will give me what I’m looking for.
And hopefully using these two new ones with Cinco de Mayo, Ebb Tide, Midnight Blue, Westerland, Autumn Sunset, Sunsprite and Wild Rover might throw some cool russets and/or oranges.
“Interesting how a “defect” can become something desirable, isn’t it?”
Desirable is in the eye of the beholder. Somebody may find that desirable. I throw stuff like that in the compost pile.
It looks more to me like it might be a step toward something of interest, assuming one has the time and energy to go there.
We seem to be seeing more notched petals.
‘Easy Does It’ seems to produce these too. If the notching were more uniform I think it would be more appealing to me.
It will be interesting to see if notching catches on. So far I’m not crazy about it.
Hi Rob,
I have Queen Bee. I got mine from Almost Heaven Roses, now closed due to the unexpected death of its owner, Vernon Rickard. It is a “smouldering” red. I would not call it a black red because to me they have more crimson in them. This is a scarlet red with deeper tones in the petals. I moved it to NY 2 years ago and when I saw the bloom this spring the color was blah and I was so disappointed but in the fall, it was its usual self. Did well for me in VA considering it has been in a small pot much to long and now it is surrounded by tall weeds in NY though in the ground. Need to give it some TLC once I am up there permanentlly.
I like it VERY MUCH though. I rooted a cutting a few years back and gave it to my rose cutting mentor Barry and it was a nice sized healthy plant. Will get some black spot however.
I think this was one of Griffith Buck’s later efforts and I recall reading that he recommended this rose to take on further since he felt it offered a lot to the hybridizer. Rob,take it away!!! Illusion should do well with it.
As I said, I look at it and it reminds me of looking into a fire!
Jim
Kim,
Quite a bloom on that one…not something I’d find desireable in its current state but as Robert wrote, it might be a step toward something of interest. I remember traits in daylilies that ended up looking wonderful but I’m sure in the early stages they weren’t so pretty.
Hey Jim,
I actually ordered Queen Bee because I read something on here about Buck saying what you wrote in the above. It may have been an earlier posting by you. I thought that maybe Queen Bee x Black Lady might produce a deep red…maybe with black tones…as a line with increased hardiness to then cross with Illusion. There was also the damask scent of QB and strong fragrance from BL that I’d hope would carry forward. What do you know about QB’s fertility?
Illusion (Kordes) is a wonderful rose that I think is under used. It’s a pleasing red, fragrant, disease free for me, good repeat, fertile, fully double, hardy and passes on red coloring to offspring. I’m hoping to get a bit stronger stems so the blooms nod a little less, deeper red, fragrance, and a hybrid tea bloom on a shrub rather than pillar/climber. I don’t know what it is about the black tones on a deep red that I like so much but I think it looks beautiful…very sultry. I found with earlier seedlings that Illusion tends to produce a bit of an OGR style bloom in offspring. If anyone would like some cuttings of it please let me know.
Rob
I’d love to try ‘Illusion’ but it’s too late to stick cuttings here already. We’re expected get a high of 80 today but it’s already 77 outside. It may get warmer than that.
If I had ‘Illusion’ I would try it with ‘Miracle on the Hudson’. It’s fertile both directions and produces are fair number of doubles.
Kim,
Would you like me to try to root you a plant for delivery to you at a better time temperature wise? I could try to layer a cane this spring or even try to layer a can in the soil this winter if the temps drop enough so that I can dig the soil up a bit.
Rob
Rob, I assume you meant to reply to me.
Sure, if you have the space and energy please root an Illusion for me. I have plenty of stuff to trade when time comes if you’re interested.
Thanks, Robert
Easydoesit was mentioned above. Has anyone used it in breeding? It might have potential because Elina is in its background. Elina has produced some good seedlings.
Thanks Rob, but if I were going to grow a red climber it would by Sympathie. It was spectacular in The Palisades, never diseased and had such glorious foliage and flowers there. The only red HTs out back are the original Legend and Velvet Fragrance, both of which are own root. Both, also, as MONSTERS here.
Rob,
I was just on ROSES UNLIMITED web site and was checking out some of the Buck Roses. Search and the pic of Queen Bee is fabulous!!! There is another dark red Buck semidouble which had that color you are seeking also.Check out all reds on their list of Buck Roses. Yes, I had mentioned her on an earlier post. I can’t recall the fragrance so I guess it is not strong.
Henry has used Illusion a lot. George mentioned an easy way to layer which I had never thought of (duh)! Thread a cane into a plastic pot, score the cane a bit and fill the pot with soil and in this weather at least half bury the pot. How are the thorns on Illusion?
I find the ground is still frozen for me. I like those dark reds too. When I was in CA someone near me had Taboo and I use to regularly go over and just look at the bloom.
Jim
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Just had an idea, get the ARS to proclaim Ink Spots extinct, the raise a dark red with tons of black spots, then reuse the name, Ink Spots for it.
Rob, rechecked. The other rose is NIGHT SONG. When you check Roses Unlimited Buck Roses check that one’s picture also. It looks like a semi double in ALL its pics and is decribed as a fully double (30-35 petals) but it doesn’t appear that way to me.
Jim
Robert,
Sorry, I did mean to reply to you. I’ll try to root Illusion for you and should hopefully have one for you by late spring if all goes well. I think you will like this one. I’ll try layering and the cuttings in the fridge method. If you are interested in Quadra I have that one as well. The bloom size is smaller than Illusion but it’s a pleasing red, fertile, and very healthy in my garden. It’s another one that I think is under used.
Jim,
Loved the picture of Queen Bee on Roses Unlimited. Night Song is definitely not fully double from what I can see in pictures. I like the pics of Queen Bee better and there is that damask scent!
Kim,
Can they declared IS extinct if it’s still in commerce? It would be cool to reuse the name on a plant that may be more popular.
Rob
Take a look at the many things declared extinct over the past twenty years, even those listed by Vintage, Sequoia, etc. If J&P didn’t sell it, it WAS extinct. All it takes is greasing the palm of the ARS and you should be able to get what you want. They are in SUCH dire straights right now, the Jan/Feb issue of their advertisement was printed last month, but they can’t pay the postage for it until Feb/March. I hear from a society friend the home office has also decided to demand a check for $300 from every local affiliated rose society to help close their budget gap. They recently demanded from the societies the name/address/phone numbers and email addresses from every local society member to sell them as a mailing list as well as adding an electronic membership for FREE where they’ll email you a bulletin of some sort every quarter so they can swell their ranks to make themselves appear more viable to advertisers.
Heck, for pocket change, they’d probably declare anything extinct!
IS = Ink Spots? Extinct? Lol, I just got an email this morning from Heirlooms Roses that almost all of their red roses are on sale this month, and it includes Ink Spots.
Link: www.heirloomroses.com/special2011-valentines-sale.htm
p.s. but you could call it Inky Spots. That’s legal.