I’m looking at HTs that are black-red in color that are fertile, disease resistant, and in addition to obtaining black-red offspring; have the potential of throwing unusual colors…orange/russet/tan etc. I’ve narrowed my choices down to these:
Black Baccara
Roundelay
Black Magic
Blackout
Deep Secret
If you could only pick one what would it be? Or, if there is one not on the list that you think beats any of these let me know. Thanks!
Rob
Disease resistance is probably not going to be found in a dark red HT - even Kordes doesn’t offer one yet that has been derived from their no-spray program.
You might look at Schwarze Madonna, Barkarole, Papa Meilland and Chrysler Imperial. Better Times has been characterized as having the right type of chemistry (high cyanin with stabilizing glycosides and/or copigments) to produce dark reds, and it has some as F1 progeny.
You can use this spreadsheet to find breeders with high levels of cyanin - look for values of 4 in the C3 and C35 columns:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pRp5DasGnb87Jp-F8PlW7eA&hl=en#gid=0
Of those you listed, I grow Black Magic, Blackout and Deep Secret. The only one of the three that has any vigor as a plant is Black Magic. The other two are pretty sickly plants most of the time.
Pride of England is more disease resistant that, lets say… Linda Campbell, Preference, or Flower Carpet Scarlet. Its sooooo unusual. It is female sterile though, so pollen only.
Black Magic will give you the colors you want but the stems are thin and its cold-tender. Its likely to be virtually scentless. Deep Secret LOATHES heat, just like Velvet Fragrance does. I am not so sure it would even give the unusual color tones.
Do not forget that you can get reds and unusual reds from orange roses. Examples: Coffee Bean (Alexander is the original source of the odd color) and Grade Amore (a red from Christopher Columbus).
Alos, check out Hocus-Pocus (Armstrong), El Cid, and Gypsy. The latter will probably give you everything you need excep gragrance. Its a strong rose. These 3 are obscure but still purchasable in the US. Gypsy is sometimes even sold at big box stores.
From your list only, though, I would go with Roundelay.
Roundelay is a remarkably good plant. I think the only reason it isn’t still big in commerce is its tendency for its color to be a muddy dark red at times. Otherwise it has spectacular vigor, makes a well-shaped shrub without a lot of “secateurial intervention” and is willing to breed.
Thank you all for your input and thank you Don for mentioning Barkarole (Taboo) and for the link.
What is the concensus on Barkarole?
Jadae - I like some of the oranges you mentioned. That is a route that I hadn’t thought of.
Paul - If you’ve grown Barkarole, how would you compare it to Roundelay?
Kathy - How is Black Magic as a parent if you know?
Thanks again all!
Rob
If you live where rust is an issue, forget Taboo. It is absolutely spectacular in the Santa Clarita Valley, everything (except fragrance) you could ask for, but where rust is an issue, it is awful. I grew it from year one and the intro year plant took two of us and a 17# pry bar to transplant. It nearly didn’t fit in the back of my sister’s Odyssey, the whole thing (chopped WAY down) was SO huge. It transplanted perfectly and is still that large in her front yard.
Roundelay is what I would go for, too. It’s just a nice plant and probably willing to give you what you want. Kim
Taboo even mildews where other roses do not.
FWIW, Better Times would be cro-magnon as a breeding rose. It is COlumbia=Briarcliff=Better Times, offspring of Ophelia. A tender florist’s rose. I grew it 50 yr ago. Beautiful, but tender and spare blooming where it freezes much, and BS plagued.
‘Roundelay’ and ‘Don Juan’ would be my pick.
I have grown Black Magic, Deep Secret, Black Baccara, Preferance, Chrysler Imperial, Janice kellogg and Ingrid Bergman. Black Baccara and Chrysler Imperial do have mildew/rust issues. Deep Secret sucumbed to Downy Mildew fast and did have fabulous blooms but I did not have it long enough to make any judgements. Preferance is tough, heat tolerant and blooms with a quick repeat. My Black Magic really has nice thick long stems, unlike Jadae’s, and I used it this year for some crosses, and it does set hips. I need to get another one because it does get used for cut flowers to much. Very disease free. Janice Kellogg is dark red but takes on a burgundy coloration when it gets cool. I have used it for some crosses and I did get a couple very dark seedlings. I have kept one that acts like a tea with individual stems, very dark and somewhat old fashioned in form. Ingrid Bergman is great-lots of flowers, disease free here, good for hip setting. I have another deep red tea, very tall, quick repeat, disease free, without fragrance, but it is unmarked and I think it is Cesar Chavez-really sets a lot of hips which I have not used because I am unsure of it’s identity. Love those reds, especially the prolific bloomers. Red Masterpiece is good but it does get some rust in my yard. Lavaglut produces hips and is a wonderfully productive rose-I haven’t used it yet, but it is always in flower and often gets used for cutting. The one rose on your list that is one of my favorites is Black Magic, and it’s on my list to use more for crosses. Will whack the hands of anyone cutting the stems for bouquets this year.
Does anyone know a source for Roundelay?
Black Lady is to consider: nice flower, color plus strong fragrance and better than average HT strength & desease resistance.
Pierre,
Do you know anything about ‘Black Lady’ as to fertility?
Jim,
I’m not finding any sources for ‘Roundelay’ unfortunately.
Rob
Ingrid Bergman doesn’t look to be red-black (like ‘Taboo’) in the HMF pictures. Does she have the black tones in person and if so, does she pass that trait on?
Rob
Rob,
There use to be a woman on the Rose Garden Web forums whose GW name was “Sheer Bliss”. Her real name is Donnell and goes by Donnie. She had a rose nursery in Northern NC by Raleigh Durham I believe and use to regularly sell at the local farmer’s market (all own root). I believe she also shipped. I am pretty positive she carried Roundeley. I think her web page was Roselands. Let me do some searching. Last time I had looked it was somewhat outdated but it at least might have contact info. She was very pleasant. She was very fussy about RMV and any mother plant she purchased that had it got booted and she searched for another source. Her married last name is RICO I think.
Jim
Jim,
Awesome! Thank you for checking.
Rob
Rob – I only tried Black Magic as a parent for the first time in September this year. It formed hips easily, but they are still on the plant, so I’m just crossing my fingers now.
Rob, question. Why choose one? Do you know the fertility of your baby youre gonna use? Cause you could always mix pollens if you plan on making tons of crosses.
You COULD mix pollens, but if you do, how will you know who belongs to whom? Creating parallel lines would be far more interesting and potentially useful. Kim