I reciently terminated Tropicana from my decades old rose bed, (only the second rose ever) and need a replacement.
It has only one cultivar listed as its offspring. Not what I’d call a strong recommendation as a breeder. Condesa de Sastago is similar in looks and probably a far better plant. The Condesa has also contributed its genes to a considerable string of offspring spanning at least seven generations.
Okay, thanks Paul. I’ll just wait. Condesa has a lot of traffic already. I did like the yellow on the underside of the petals though.
I think there a lot of better red/yellow bicolor types out, or roses that could potentially produce similar. For example, Over the Moon is bred from New Kleopatra (red/gold bicolor) and Christopher Columbus (orange, apricot and yellow blend). Similarly, Solitaire can produce bicolors easily since it comes from a coral bicolor and a yellow blend. This seems pretty common in most lineages descending from The Queen Alexandra Rose like Picadilly, Colour Wonder, etc. Meidiland has used Henri Mallerin a lot as the bicolor originator (via Contrast) of their choice. It seems to have been a wise decision, and definitely more strongly colored than using the Contrast lineage(via Forty-Niner). They all fairly much originate from Pernet’s work with Rosa foetida though. It took many generations to breed out the nasty qualities of the pernetianas, so I would personally want to use roses that have had those bad traits bred out of them and not use something like Forty-Niner. There are a lot of options for this.
You may consider Contrast-- if I remember, it has more descendants and many of them as bicolors, and it carries through apparently for some generations.
I used Tradewinds this year on Honey Dijon (I hope for a bicolor tan)–
And Tradewinds is a descendant of Contrast.
Perhaps you could use Amber Star-- I am using Ingrid, its seedling-- although Ingrid doesn’t set hips (or just one or two openly pollinated hips.)
But it does produce lots of pollen, though I haven’t used it at all but once on Pacific Serenade. But that didn’t take. (I wanted a mini like Ingrid, but without so much thorns.)
Oops, I meant Meiland uses Suspense (not Contrast).
I forgot to add that Gina Lollobrigida merges multiple red/yellow bicolor lines. It, and perhaps its kid, Michelangelo, would be good yellows for crossing with orange bicolors, red/yellow bicolors and reds bred from bicolors to produce strong bicolors. I think the former would be better because Helmut Schmidt, the other parent of Michelangelo, tends to prduce pastels and white. The lineages regarding this on HMF is still not clarifed so ignore the fact that the wrong Tchin-Tchin is listed in them.
Thanks Enrique and Mike. I’ve been looking up all these recomendations till I became dizzy with overload or maybe the 13,000ft alt. helped. Not a single cross took that was tried so i’m still not a breeder and maybe never will be. Just as an aside, the leaf morphology on the seedlings of Rio Sambo where weird and the mother plant threw a 7"x4" leaf. Are there roses that normaly have leaves that size?
Yeah, Lynn Anderson, Neptune, uhm… a few others can get some reallllllly huge leaves on them. I remember when I used to exhibit, I’d always cuss because Lynn Anderson’s leaves were so heavy that they’d break themselves, which meant that I could no longer exhibit that stem.
I am guessing that huge leaves are more common in Western OR/WA than most places tho.
What a bummer Jadae. That looks like a big flower also. And now I just have to ask how big can some of these flowers get? I have a lot that are 6" so when I seen a real big one I measured it years ago. But, i’ve forgotten more things than—? i’ll ever remember? including that.
The lineages regarding this on HMF is still not clarifed so ignore the fact that the wrong Tchin-Tchin is listed in them.
Mike, what do you mean by this?
There are two Tchin-Tchin. The yellow HT version is what it is supposed to be in the lineage. however, the orange-red floribunda by the same name/breeder are in its place. This pattern is found among a few others bred from the yellow HT Tchin-Tchin (aka Parador).
Was looking at pictures of Neptune on Help me find and thought of a Phillodendrion? for change of color because some of those look blue to me???
Neil it always amazes me how many of the lavender roses look blue on the photos. I think it just an illusion caused through the use of the camera. In real life very few of these say anything close to blue to me. Some however do hint at it in small ways. I think it was Fara who commented on some of them also hint to her eyes of being blue.
On a side note I do a little work with lavenders and I highly doubt that they can be made blue, but maybe. As for me I will just focus on making a hardy disease resistant lavender climber with the blooming ability of the miniatures. I am using some of the canadian government roses many of these roses want to climb anyways, crossing them with miniatures only one is lavender (these offspring will also work for my main program)and I also have used a few hybrid teas and floribunda lavenders but these I only want to really contribute their colors. Right know I have few results but in the future I expect more. I am also interested in how R. foetida is related to lavenders. So I am planing to do experimental crosses with carefree cooper to experiment and see what if anything it has to do with the color I would use R. foetida directly because it does grow really well here but its pollen is a hit and miss. hopefully carefree cooper works well for this purpose because this question has been making me wonder for a while.
Hi Adam,
I believe mauves are not only related to Rosa foetida, and especially bicolor as it has multiple layers of pigment (which mauve reqires), but I believe mauve is also related to roses which are dense in cyanin and roses which are rich with pelargonidin. If you look at a lot of orange-red floribundas, you will see purple near the eye zoning. Some of these roses if the petals age badly, will actually turn mauve and purple. Some roses, like Cinnamon Girl, ages from rust orange to pure silvery lilac.
I find it entirely fascinating. Colors that seem to relate to mauve are often: ochre gold, signal red-orange, bicolor, cyanin rich red. Salmon and strong apricot tones seem to aid in toning down the mauve to silvery tones.
This is all not static, of course, but generalized isolations and patterns.
Many of the russets are actually oranges which ‘blue’ with age. Brown Velvet, Iris Webb, Edith Holden, LeGrice’s Jocelyn and Victoriana, Hot Cocoa and their like are all blueing oranges. Blue For You is the most incredibly colored mauve I’ve grown yet and the foliage here is glorious! It has a lovely gray cast to it and the petals actually do have blue tones to them.
I don’t think I would choose a mauve mini for your breeding Adam. Too many of them obtained their mauve tones from Angel Farts, one of the worst for creating hemophiliac offspring. It has wonderful fragrance, can be pollinated with dirt and, when right, can be breath taking, but you’ll slave for generations to eliminate that awful, weak, disease laden plant from your line. It’s just too homogenized for Foetida. I’d think a more secure approach might be using any of the newer, improved mauves with your carefree cooper and minis which are healthy where you are.
There are two Tchin-Tchin. The yellow HT version is what it is supposed to be in the lineage. however, the orange-red floribunda by the same name/breeder are in its place. This pattern is found among a few others bred from the yellow HT Tchin-Tchin (aka Parador).
Mike, I sent you an email message through the forum mail server, but apparently that is not working or you are not checking the address to which the link by your name connects. If you will let me know which roses have incorrect parentages on HMF, I will try to see that they’re corrected. Parentages of both Gina Lollobrigida and Michelangelo now match what is given in their patents, and the confusion between Tchin-Tchin and Parador has been eliminated. My address is peter dot harris dot g at gmail.com. Thanks.
I used Angel Face last year and got horrible results. As far as the mauves I have only Twilight Trail as a miniature.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
“I don’t think I would choose a mauve mini for your breeding Adam. Too many of them obtained their mauve tones from Angel Farts, one of the worst for creating hemophiliac offspring. It has wonderful fragrance, can be pollinated with dirt and, when right, can be breath taking, but you’ll slave for generations to eliminate that awful, weak, disease laden plant from your line.”
True, ‘AF’ is a dreadful plant that produces plenty of dreadful offspring. Some of its offspring from Ralph’s breeding are far superior plants as regards vigor and disease resistance, but I believe few are worth dabbling around with as breeders. ‘Angel Farts’ nasty traits have a way of surfacing two and three generations down the road.
If someone were to approach me to ask what dwarf mauve/lavender/purple to use in breeding, I would probably recommend one of the two ‘Violette’ hybrids: ‘Vineyard Song’ or ‘Sweet Chariot’. The former is a remarkably sturdy garden shrub and one of a very small percentage of roses that does not suffer from Blackspot in my climate. ‘Vineyard Song’ passes on its architecture style, bloom form and its excellent fragrance to many of its progeny. ‘Sweet Chariot’ already has a track record as a breeder, having contributed significantly to Carruth’s purple shrubs. That said, I have gotten some remarkable hybrids from ‘Midnight Blue’ and found it to be highly malleable yet capable of passing on its rich coloring.
Wow, a lot of good info here, ill have to rethink all of it. The only mauve I have is Heirloom and no mater what, it only gets three foot tall but there is at least one seedling coming along that looks like a copy and from red rose no. 23, some mauve seedlings. I was also wondering if the type roses growing in the Kurdish part of the world has readily available seed or just dont bother.