Has anyone used R. arkansana and had remontant seedlings in the first generation? My arkansana blooms right into September.
I did have one repeater with ‘George Vancouver’. The R. ark was stippled and GV was the female. The seedling was stippled so that’s a pretty good indication it was a cross. I had a hard time finding females that would readily accept R. ark pollen. I should try again. I have some op seedlings off of my stippled ark just coming into bloom. They are true crosses because one is double flowered and the other has purple filaments and other features really different from the R. ark clone. I should try to cross with them before it’s too late this year. David
I’ve bloomed about six or seven R. arkansana hybrids, and grown several more to a decent size, and none where recurrent. R. arkansana is very variable for recurrence, among other things. The clone I used to make these seedlings is the only strongly recurrent one I have grown, although some others do make the odd late bloom. The recurrent clone came from White Rabbit Roses and is as recurrent as a floribunda some years, and somewhat less so in others.
My experience on recurrence in hybrids isn’t very definitive, as I only used the White rabbit clone of R. arkansana as a male parent, and all but one seedling also shared the same female parent, ‘Sequoia Gold.’ I did try other combinations, but never got anything. The ‘Sequoia Gold’ x R. arkansana hybrids are rather pretty though, and range in color: light pink, medium pink, salmon pink, peachy orange, and medium yellow.
I have a clone from you labeled V3; this is not the same as the White Rabbit arkansana, is it?
It hasn’t been recurrent for me, but I’ve used this one (a virginiana, if I’m remembering correctly) as the pollen parent of several seedlings.
Last season, and the one before, I started to work more seriously with some of the tetraploid North American species. From before that, I have one really interesting F1 from Fragrant Cloud X carolina that had encouraged me to work more with these underdogs. It’s not recurrent; even though both parents are. But it is very fertile – two of the V3 [pollen] offspring are from this seed parent.
Aside from the recurrent carolina clone, I have three clones of virginiana and an arkansana. None of these has been recurrent for me… but I noticed this year that one of the virginiana’s has sent up some very strong shoots from the ground that are terminating in (a little later than typical) bloom clusters. It’s never done this before – and this is the way [on the ends of new “canes”] that the carolina tends to repeat.
After quite a few failed pollinations in 2003, trying North American’s on Hybrid Teas; I decided that in 2004, I would try intercrossing among the North Americans. Most of these didn’t germinate last spring, but instead, waited until this spring to come up. So I’ve now got virginiana X carolina, carolina X arkansana, carolina X arkansana, etc. These are all only an inch tall so it’ll be a while until I know what they’ll be like, remontancy or otherwise. I also have a lone seedling from R. davidii X V3.
This season I’ve been trying Hazeldean on the North Americans, but I don’t think it’s working. I also tried William Lobb [moss rose] pollen on one of the virginianas – not sure if that’s taking yet either. I have reason to believe that “old garden rose” pollen might be more effective (than other cultivated types) on North American seed parents, because I have gotten seedlings from carolina X gallica, but never anything from Hybrid Tea or Floribunda pollen.
Paul, I know you’ve done some work with Portlands, Mosses and other old roses. You might want to consider trying ‘Rose de Rescht’ or ‘Compte de Chambord’ pollen (if you can gather enough of either) on your recurrent arkansana??? I, for one, sure would like to see if the recurrency would be maintained in this type of cross. I might still get a chance to try ‘Rose de Rescht’ on one of my North Americans, if my ‘Rose de Rescht’ cycles again quick enough. Wish me luck.
And good luck to you, whatever you decide to try.
Thanks for the input. I have used ‘Rose de Rescht’ years ago and found that although it often produced remontant offspring, many were tragically disease prone. And so, I stopped using it. However, it might be worth trying again with the right parent. Thanks for your info.
For a number of years (i.e. many), I have tried to germinate open pollinated seeds of Prairie Fire. I think that I had only one germinate, and it did not live. I have not tried using its pollen. The pollen has produced 2 offspring, see:
Dear Paul, The ‘R. arkansana sucker you sent me has two little blooms on it. Is it anything other than plain ol’ R. ark.? Will it set hips? P.S.- The hips you sent out for the High School horticulture class was a huge success. The kids sprouted a bunch of different looking seedlings and were very excited about it.( The teacher photocopied my whole hybridizers booklet!) Who knows? Might have inspired somebody! Robyn
You’re welcome Paul. I went out and checked the North American tetraploids today [made curious by the discussion] and unfortunately it looks like they’re just about all finished blooming. The one virginiana has those tall vigorous new canes with some blooms yet to open. And of course, the remontant carolina will most likely bloom again. There are also just a few arkansana buds still unopened. So, maybe I’ll get to try a few more things this season.
The six attempts of virginiana [with tall new canes] X Hazeldean did not take. Another five [different] virginiana X ‘Hazeldean’ and five X ‘William Lobb’ are still hanging on but don’t look too promising.
All blooms on my “fertile” F1 (from ‘Fragrant Cloud’ X carolina) have aborted. Last year, every bloom set a hip. Go figure. I’m beginning to wonder if maybe the conditions haven’t been so good for seed set in general this year. We have had some unusual weather.
By the way, the seedlings I grew from ‘Rose de Rescht’ two years ago were also very mildew prone. They were from pollen of ‘Carefree Sunshine’. But I haven’t given up…
I’ve got hips maturing, as we speak, on ‘Rose de Rescht’. I didn’t emasculate the blooms, but pollinated them heavily with pollen from ‘Hazeldean’. So, I’m crossing my fingers I’ll get some actual hybrids from these seeds.
Hi Tom, Is your recurrent carolina clone a double flowered one called R. carolina plena? I have that one from Roger Mitchell. It is beautiful. That’s great you have fertile offspring from your recurrent carolina clone. This R. carolina plena clone I’ve grown is 3x and seems basically sterile from the little work I’ve tried with it. Sincerely, David
Tom, “V3” is my shorthand for the R. virginiana clone ‘Harvest Song,’ which has occasionally come up in this list. It is very pollen fertile with modern tetraploid roses. I have perhaps 20 seedlings that have bloomed from it and maybe 10 more from other clones of R. virginiana and R. carolina. The male fertility of these two species is VERY variable from clone to clone.
The method of producing late bloom you describe for R. carolina, blooming on the end of particularly robust new canes, is one I have seen on a clone of R. blanda I obtained from Heirloom roses years ago. I have several hybrids with this (blanda) as a female parent, pollinated with various diploid roses, but none are recurrent.
I have never seen recurrent bloom on any clone of R. virginiana, and I have only seen recurrent bloom in R. carolina once: last fall on a clone that I collected from my own property. This clone is most emphatically not recurrent in the wild. I believe that the mechanism of recurrence in the occasional clone of R. virginiana and R. carolina is a combination of unusually strong growth under cultivation, occurring at times when the mechanism that normally prevents recurrent bloom is weak. In other words, I believe that these species are not truly recurrent in any way that they can pass on to first-generation offspring. Keep up with the North American crosses, however, as they can produce recurrent offspring in the second generation. I use R. carolina and R. virginiana as pollen parents only, but the first-generation hybrids are generally both male and female fertile.
Tom and David: That clone of R. carolina ‘plena’ came from Mike Lowe and is the same that was described in a ARS annual article. After David told me it was triploid, I decided that it might be a R. carolina x China rose hybrid. David is correct that it is a royal pain as a parent, but I keep trying. I consider it one of the walls I like to bang my head on (Stanwell Perpetual is another). Anyway, I do have seedlings from its pollen used on ‘William Booth.’ Mr. Booth will set seeds from good intentions, but the seedlings are rarely recurrent, and the [‘William Booth’ x various R. virginiana and R. carolina clones] seedlings that I have sucker.
P.S.: I was collecting pollen from the R. arkansana hybrids I mentioned earlier, and medium yellow was far to generous as a description of one of them. It is actually light yellow.
Dr. Roger Mitchell
Ferris State University
Big Rapids, MI, USDA zone 5
I have a R. virginiana open pollinated seedling that gave a very nice fully double flower its first year (one bloom). It has never bloomed again, and this may be its 10 th year. It is still only a 1 foot tall plant (no winter die back). I gave it a shot of Messenger this spring hoping that that would trigger a bloom , but so far no sign of a bud.
My recurrent carolina is a single-flowered type, collected on a property I own in [eastern panhandle of] West Virginia. And now that Roger’s mentioned it, I don’t think that it was recurrent in the wild either. I’ve only seen it rebloom (and fairly consistently), since it’s been transplanted to my garden conditions. Roger’s idea (of unusually strong growth overriding the normal mechanisms that prevent rebloom) would explain the blooms at the ends of the one virginiana clone this year also. These canes are already well above all the growth from previous years. And I’m pretty sure that I have seen occassional fall bloom in the wild locally. It’s usually been along a roadside where mowing probably cut down the earlier growth – once again maybe, unusually strong [re-]growth.
I fully agree that the North American tetraploids should be thought of as not generally producing F1 rebloomers. (Actually, I haven’t gotten any rebloom on F2 yet either; but I’ve only grown five so far.) As an exception to that rule, I do have one F1 carolina hybrid that has bloomed on the ends of new canes – it’s R.rugosa alba X carolina.
I’ll include a few links (I hope they work) to show some of my work with carolina.
Here’s the F1 that has rebloomed: <a href="http://www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/SpeciesHybridTable/rugosaXcarolina.html]www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/SpeciesHybridTable/rugosaXcarolina.html[/url]
Here’s my favorite: <a href="http://www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/FragrantCloudXcarolina.html]www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/FragrantCloudXcarolina.html[/url]
Here’s one I’ve been skeptical of, from carolina as a seed parent: <a href="http://www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/SpeciesHybridTable/carolinaXgallica.html]www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/SpeciesHybridTable/carolinaXgallica.html[/url]
Although, as I inspect it more over the years, I’m thinking it definitely isn’t just a selfed carolina. And it isn’t from any of my other [very glossy] North Americans. So, maybe the matte blue green foliage really is from gallica, after all.
Those crosses are beautiful Tom. Does your cross of Fragrant Cloud x carolina set OP hips? Have you tried growing out any OP seedlings? It would be nice to get a repeat blooming descendant.
I agree that it is sometimes difficult to identify hybrids. Often it seems the phenotypic character of one parent or the other is nearly entirely masked.
I’d like to point out the Basye’s Legacy already descends from carolina alba so it might be worth working with. Legacy produces fertile repeat blooming offspring in the first generation. Any of these could be used back to carolina if one was looking to preserve the carolina character and possibly produce a repeat blooming hybrid in the first generation. A repeat blooming cross of Legacy x (Fragrant Cloud x carolina) should be possible.
Kim produced a repeat flowering hybrid of Lilac Charm x Legacy that sets fertile hips and I recently produced a seedling I hope to using in breeding, Lilac Charm x (Softee x Legacy) See link.
I also produced a few crosses of Dornroschen x (Playboy x Legacy)which should be hardy and relatively disease resistant.
They set hips.
Link: 'LCXSL' Rose
One more time with the link. Sorry
Thank you for the compliments. Your seedling, Lilac Charm x (Softee x Bayse’s Legacy), looks like a nice one too; and has some interesting ancestry coming together in it. I hope it is fertile for you.
As for fertility of the ‘Fragrant Cloud’ x carolina (which definitely has a lot of carolina character)… two years ago, every flower set a hip and each hip had several seeds in it. I had expected it to not be very fertile, but had pollinated all flowers heavily with pollen from ‘Carefree Sunshine’. I have one REALLY healthy seedling from those seeds (and several other slower growing ones). None of these has bloomed yet – so probably not repeaters. I don’t remember what happened last season. I’m guessing we were busy with house-construction issues and missed it’s bloom season. I can’t even remember if it had open-pollinated hips or not. This season, I tried pollinating with ‘Carefree Sunshine’ again and also a few with ‘Peace’. Sadly, nothing took at all. But I haven’t had many successful crosses at all this season – I think due to the abnormal weather.
I like your suggestion of using Legacy with my seedling. That sure would be interesting to try. It’s also good to know that Legacy has produced repeat blooming offspring.
Back to the one very healthy seedling, from (‘Fragrant Cloud’ X carolina) X ‘Carefree Sunshine’…
It stood out among all of my seedlings that year, by being completely free of mildew. Almost every other seedling I grew that year had at least some mildew – even species and species hybrids. This mildew free seedling is a foot tall bushy plant now, and so far still disease free (even no blackspot). It seems to be a much nicer plant than it’s seed parent. It is dense and vigorous, and still shows some carolina character in its foliage. Hopefully next year it will bloom and I can try it out for fertility (especially with repeaters like Hybrid Teas). I’ll try to get a current picture of the plant to post. In the mean time, here it is as a seedling.
Wow, I see what you mean about that seedling. It really does stand out. I hope it flowers for you. I’ve preserved some seedlings several years before giving up on them. Most do eventually flower of course. In our case we don’t get enough chill to satisfy some once bloomers.
I have a friend who produced a seedling that took seven years to flower and now repeats. Thanks, Robert
I bought Rosa virginia this year from Hortico. I dislike Hortico but they had grafted species and other roses I needed. I hope it will bloom next year. Maybe I’ll put it on something mauve … or orange… or yellow. Eh, I dunno. Shocking Blue x Rosa virginia doesnt sound too bad. Remember Me x Rosa virginia… uhmmm… Solitaire x Rosa virginia would be cool but I fear the majority would be all massive plant and no bloom. Oh, Kanegem x Rosa virginia would be okay. I cant think of any true yellows that I have that would work well with it. The majority of yellows I have only work as pollen parents. Im amazed that Tom got Fragrant Cloud to work well as a female parent.
Yeah, I’m always looking for a good yellow seed parent.
I’m amazed too! ‘Fragrant Cloud’ usually doesn’t set many hips at all for me. I just got really lucky that one time. And I’ve tried to repeat the cross several times but had no luck. I’ve even tried different North American clones as the pollen parent. And unfortunately, from the last couple of seasons, it looks like the F1 might be taking after ‘Fragrant Cloud’ in it’s finicky hip set.
If you’ve got ANY really fertile seed parents I think North American pollen would be worth a try. And as long as you understand that the first generation will be once bloomers, I wouldn’t worry about the plants being all foliage and no bloom. My F1 blooms fairly well and the blooms are mostly one to a stem – hardly any clusters. And I’m expecting the mildew resistant F2 seedling to bloom like mad next spring.
Robert, I’ll try to remember to get a current picture of that plant tonight.
I think that’s great Tom! Re: Solitaire. It tends to give off a lot of plants that only bloom above head height. Apertif is a good example. It could easily be trained as a climber. This is too bad because it is one of the easiest yellow seed parents out there. I put a lot of various yellows on it this year. I even tried the brand new St. Christopher on it. Robert, maybe St. Christopher will be a good seed parent when it is mature. It is too young (own root) to try. I believe it is an Amber Queen seedling because it is A. by Harkness B. has some copper tones mixed in the true gold and C. has similar foliage shape. Im guessing either F1 or F2 from Amber Queen. Just watch be wrong if the parentage is ever released haha.
Too bad you (Tom) dont live close. I have a New Year x Baby Love that sprouted this year. It has Baby Love’s foliage and a fluffy-lookin double tangerine hued bloom. It seems to be mildew resistant and would be perfect for your cross.