What is the ploidy for early yellow oriental species and their hybrids. Hugonis, r. Primula, Canary Bird, Cantabrigiensis?
These roses have amazing resistance, decent hardiness, fragrance, long and early bloom period and even excellent vase life.
Olga
Olga, I’m fairly certain these are all diploids.
Thank you, Robert. This is really helpful.
Olga
Olga, these species represent a huge opportunity for hybridizers.
I’ve had some luck with xanthina. There is much to do yet.
Olga I don’t know if you asked that question to use them in hybridizing but I am almost sure some if not all of those will accept some triploid and tetraploid pollen especially if they are used as the seed parent. I just put some carefree sunshine and baby love pollen on r. Hugonis yesterday.
Patrick
Thank you. Yes, I want to use them in hybridization. They are my favorite group of roses and I feel somewhat underused in hybridization. Hybrid with Carefree Sunshine sounds great. Somehow I never had luck with Baby Love. It BSed badly for me.
Olga
Olga,
One other thing to watch for is that the hips mature fast. I’ve had mature hip drop before the end of July (in east TN) and the hips are cherished by my rodent population. They don’t fpersist on the ground under their parent bushes very long at all.
Ann
Thanks, Ann. I have the same experience, you reminded me about it. I will watch them as a hawk. On a positive note I have a very vivid hunter (cat) in my household, no rodents around and the rodent free( and rabbit free) area is quite large.
Olga
I think they are SO beautiful and wonderful too. I wish it was easier to get hybrids from them with other classes of roses. I tried them with polyanthas with many many pollinations, but none took. The only hybrid I have now that made it is a 3x hybrid of R. hugonis x Haidee. Perhaps since Haidee has R. spinnosissima as one parent the cross took better because this species is in the same section as R. hugonis. I tried crosses with R. primula and rugosas too. Kathy Zuzek has a couple hybrids that lived, but never bloomed. Me too… I had a very goofy Rise N Shine x R. primula cross that I think is basically a hybrid that kicked out much of the R. primula DNA and was repeat blooming, but contorted and very odd.
Hopefully we’ll be able to break some of these barriers/challenges in getting more hybrids from these hardy, wonderful species.
Sincerely,
David
I’m almost positive I’ve got a couple of repeat flowering seedlings out of first generation species hybrids, at least one out of R. xanthina.
I remember when I saw the parentage for ‘Floradora’ I was incredulous and insisted it simply could not be as stated. I’ve since reversed that opinion as I now know it can happen.
I have to imagine some kind of incomplete transfer of genetic material is occurring.
I might then stick my neck out and guess that quite a few of the true Pimpinellifoliae can produce repeat-blooming F1 hybrids with remontant roses, judging from what I’ve seen with ‘Harison’s Yellow’. It seems, unfortunately, that their good qualities like hardiness or disease resistance seldom pass down unharmed, but they do seem to be capable of imparting at least a warming effect on the offspring’s flower color from their own yellow shades (when they have them). HY’s apparent mixed-color background probably mutes that effect to some extent.
I had the chance to use some pollen from one or two of the early blooming yellows from Joan Monteith a few years back, but while they seemed extremely fertile and produced a great many seeds, little of that seed germinated and the few hybrids I got were extremely sickly and I guessed that they were more or less completely incompatible with the diploid Cinnamomeae roses I was trying to cross them with.
HY is quite different for me from other early yellows. Distinctly different growth habit and gets BS, sometimes years quite bad. So I am not planning to use this one. I am not really aiming for repeat, more like the rose with the same graceful habit, disease resistance and hardines, but different color would be great. I am thinking about probably cross them with Doorenbos Selection. I am doing this just for fun, so don’t have to worry about repeat. I love once bloomers.
Olga
Doorenbos Selection is quite floriferous though, is it not? I swore I read somewhere that it can sometimes repeat in the fall. Have you ever experienced that Olga?
Max
Stefan, If you look at the lineage of ‘Golden Wings’ you will note that it’s basically a first generation species cross that repeats. Yes, it comes out of Spinossisima.
I’m convinced these things do happen.
Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=3053&tab=21&lstTyp=16
I’m going to try Springtime from Lens next year. (Bought it this year, so probably no flowers yet).
It is R. x pteragonis x R. hugonis.
There is at least one hybrid of Springtime (with R. willmottiae), so it should have some fertility.
Rob
Of the early yellows, I’ve had some experience with xanthina, hugonis, primula and ‘Hazeldean’.
David mentioned that he had “tried them with polyanthas with many many pollinations, but none took.” I’m not surprised by that. I’ve tried mostly interspecies crosses, especially with xanthina. The Synsytlae species (like multiflora and wichuraiana) seemed to be hopelessly stubborn to cross with xanthina for me. So, polyanthas, (being so closely descended from Synstylae) would probably be equally as difficult. However, I think that I remember a friend of Robert Rippetoe, having some luck with hugonis and wichuraiana (maybe?).
And as Stefan mentioned, these species do tend to pass along the yellow. I’ve had a rugosa X xanthina for quite a few years now that has been completely sterile (so far) but it is definitely butter yellow. I also tried primula on rugosa, but with no luck at all. I have an unbloomed seedling of rugosa X ‘Hazeldean’ that I have high hopes for. However, it will most likely be triploid and also probably a very difficult parent; if it’s anything like my rugosa X spinosissima seedlings.
And I certainly agree with Robert that first generation species crosses can be repeat blooming. I’ve got a multiflora X rugosa F1 that has repeated faithfully (in early Fall) for years.
Hi Tom, Yes, Avery Tunningley created several hybrids of Wichurana and Hugonis. Some of them never flowered. I have the best of the lot here. It flowers and looks much like Wichurana. OP hips and seed are produced but none germinate.
I missed the opportunity to try pollen last season. Hopefully this season I will be more successful, assuming it flowers. It is totally clean so far.
I’ve noted Powdery Mildew on more than one xanthina seedling from previous season’s efforts, and when used with a resistant seed parent. Needless to say, I’m disappointed but apparently this can occur with far reaching crosses. Best not to throw the baby out with the bath water and move forward. Nothing is perfect.
I have a question about these early yellows, since they bloom early, what other roses would be compatible to cross? Unless you freeze pollen are there any other shrubs that bloom at the same time other than the Moyesii class, which I believe have fungus problems here in Maryland. Also, has anyone found if these plants work better as the mother plant, versus being used as the pollen parent instead?
Kim Rupert bred a beautiful hybrid from Ralph Moore’s “1-72-1” (sister seedling to ‘Rise ‘N’ Shine’) and R. hugonis. Some years it struggles in my garden (doesn’t seem to like the heavy clay I have here) and other years it does OK. On a good year its spectacular. Unfortunately all attempts to use its pollen for breeding has produced no seed.
Paul
I’ll bet Kim and I are using the same rose. I’m not sure if it’s xanthina or hugonis.
Sequoia had it for years in the back of the nursery labelled R. primula. Kim shared it with me. I knew primula couldn’t be correct and we have no definitive answer.
I call it xanthina just to err to the side of caution as hugonis is sometimes described as a sub-species of xanthina.
Whatever it is, it’s pollen fertile. I’ve posted photos to HMF. Check most recent postings and advise if you have any thoughts.
Thanks, Robert