I’m considering purchasing it to cross with a Knockout x Oklahoma seedling.
I’m wanting something with strong fragrance; I also need to increase bloom size.
I’m considering purchasing it to cross with a Knockout x Oklahoma seedling.
Its relatively healthy and strong for an HT type.
I would be suprised if it was not readily fertile, given its lineage.
The major cons that I can recall are a very heavy, awkward plant and a wish-washy color during the summer. Otherwise, it was a decent HT.
It’d probably be an easy seed parent.
Oklahoma has that washed out color in the summer as well. Chrysler Imperial’s buds are too small. Is there anything you would recommend? (Charles Mallerin has nice color and size, would it be a better choice?) I got a hip each from Pink Peace and Fragrant Cloud crossed with the above seedling as pollen parent this year (trying for more fragrance- also would be similar to that of Dolly Parton on that last). What I would really like is Daily Mail Scented Rose, perhaps I should settle for Chateau de Clos Vougeot (I think I would have to go several generations further and probably have to backcross if I did that though).
I’ve also thought about something along these lines (I bet I could get something similar and darker):
Jon you must love the older colored red roses like I do. I find some of the newer color fast reds are bland.
I would stay away from Dolly Parton. It would be a disaster to work with, unfortunately.
Proud Land is my favorite of the old reds. Its pretty healthy and has good vigor. The blooms are plate sized here – no joke.
Lasting Love has the vigor, scent and color you are seeking but it has similar disease resistance to the old reds. However, Brad Jalbert made a pretty smart cross called Baqi Billah Maulana Shaykh Nazim. Yeah, I cant pronounce is either, but the cross is smart for a red HT.
Buck made a lot of red hardy shrubs as well. Some are reported to be fragrant. I have never seen one but there are pics online. Knock Out is just a reinvented Buck anyways, lol.
Charles Mallerin would be an awful choice. It took breeders decades to breed out the bad qualities.
If you want to go the Fragrant Cloud route then use Alec’s Red. However, FC tends to pass on pinks.
Red + fragrant + dark is hard to get without a crap ton of issues
One route ya may try is to cross into one of the shorter, decent blooming red/purple English type (or even Like Big Purple) and then cross back into modern bush types again.
What about Firefighter as a pollen donor? It has truly magnificent fragrant red HT type blooms, in my opinion.
I purchased Firefighter a few months ago, and accidentally killed it when the spade went through its graft union when I tried to relocate it soon after the initial planting…LOL.
As I have well and truly exceeded my $$ budget on new roses this year, I’ll just have to wait till next year and think about replacing it then.
Hi again Jon.
I forgot to mention also, see the link below which takes you to a conversation in the archives where Paul gives his opinion on Chateau de Clos Vougeot in terms of breeding.
I personally love Firefighter but I assumed he had already considered it since its out there as mainstream now. Its definitely pollen only. It cant sets hips worth beans.
I guess I need to give Firefighter another look- as it keeps popping up. I was put off by some of the pics on HMF where it appears to ‘blue’ similar to that of KO (which I would like to get away from). Hmm, Lasting Love is a parent of Firefighter as well. Alec’s Red looks worthwhile (but I would have to purchase it… I already have Fragrant Cloud…decisions, decisions). I see that CdCV isn’t thought very highly of…
“one of the shorter, decent blooming red/purple English types”- I gave some thought about trying Munstead Wood.
As far as red Bucks, what about Night Song?
The seedling I have has an upright hybrid tea form, strong neck. Decent architecture (…so far my 8-9mos old seedling is still under 3’ tall with a good spread). I would imagine a mass planting would look nice. It is making some large hips but I don’t know if the seeds will be easy to germinate yet. I think I could cross it with anything for one more generation and still retain decent disease resistance (anything after that I might have to do a back cross).
Out of these aforementioned- and I will have to add a few more to the list to be considered:
Taboo, Ingrid Bergman, Black Magic, Velvet Fragrance.
If you were only going to purchase one, which would it be? (I’m not so worried about disease resistance- I’m pretty sure I can fix that).
Ingrid Bergman sets seed well, is good as pollen donor, and produces some nice red seedlings, as well as having some good offspring in commerce. Deep Secret is gorgeous, great fragrance–I was going to use it but it became a victim of downy mildew 2 yrs ago. Black Magic is one of the most gorgeous (no, zero, zip for fragrance) deep dark non-bluing reds out there. Produces good pollen, does set seeds, haven’t tried it until this year, so will see if the seed germinate and pass on that deep coloration. Plant is tough, but it did get downy mildew also-just didn’t succumb. I have this fetish about red roses also, and my best red seedlings have been produced by Olympiad x Janice Kellogg crosses. To my nose Olympiad is extremely fragrant, but many people are unable to smell that range–I have some roses that I am unable to detect any fragrance at all, and my daughter says they smell like strong bubblegum X cough syrup. Not sure what aldehydes lurk there. Red Masterpiece also is good both for pollen and seed. Mine has been very disease free, but a (very large) tree fell on it in a fire storm two yrs ago, and the whole shrub has been very slow to recoup, so i’ve only used it in a couple crosses.
Jon, if your seedling is female fertile, then you could likely ask for pollen from someone that grows the rose you need on HMF.
Ok so if you love the color of Black Jade and you want to produce something in a similar color; knowing that Black Jade is a horrible plant that you do not want to work with what would you guys and girls consider to be a viable option? Would you go back to one of the parents or would you go with something else all together?
Hi Adam…As Jackie mentioned, what about Black Magic as a substitue for the weakling Black Jade. I believe BM is a very popular HT your side of the world. I might also think about buying Black Magic next year myself.
Jon, Roundellay has a reputation of being a very healthy HT with deep red blooms and a little fragrance.
Check out Paul’s Roundellay X Home run seedling:
I was going to suggest Black Magic also. I have a 2 year old plant and it does not set hips very well but it is a great pollen producer, that is for sure. I am going to try and take some cuttings soon,I heard that own root plants set better hips, I don’t know how true that is, does anyone know?
Beautiful seedling there Jon.
Roses like Black Magic, Taboo and Black Jade have one commonality – they can breed orange and russet. This color ton is often derived from orange roses. I got a black-red seedling this year out of Raven x Preference – both of which have a lot of orange and red in their backgrounds.
Careful with Black Magic though. Its a nice HT but it can be tender and lanky. It does not really have any scent.
George, I love the color on Roundellay. Being from CA it seems if I were lucky it might throw some fragrance as well. (The blooms are small though)
“I heard that own root plants set better hips”
I know for an absolute fact this is the case for Flirtatious.
…and thank you everyone; If you all can’t tell, I haven’t made up my mind yet.
Hi again Jon.
I have no idea whether firefighter breeds its massive flower size…I hope it does, perhaps other members here can advise on this aspect. A few months ago I was advised by my local rose nurseryman that its flowers also have a very good holding on power, at least on the bush (I have not grown it yet to confirm this, but it is a good thing for me to hear if it is true!).
The only breeding experience I have with Firefighter is from Purple Heart x Firefighter. Like most Purple Heart seedlings, they were all dusky violet-pink
One thing to consider for your seedling, Jon, is that not only red x red produces red. Likewise, both Knock Out (light cyanin type)) and Oklahoma (deep cyanin type) are on different spectrums of red. If anything, the most optimal compliment would be something with pelargonidin in it. Be careful with a mildew prone parent tho. I would also probably avoid roses with a lot of peonin sans other reds or surpressors of red.
Random thoughts: Heirlooms has really pretty Black Beauty (the old version) and Black Pearl in their display gardens that describes what you desire. There are a few other roses descending from the Rome Glory line that are similar. Sometimes one can find Big Ben in death bag sales @ box stores. I bought a rose called Painted Desert from Cliff before it went into the abyss of lost roses. It is bred from Madame Delbard, another rose from that line. Painted Desert is basically a modern, refined, mildew-free version of Tropicana, which is part of what Madame Delbard is bred from. Madame Delbard, despite its heavy orange parentage, is black-red. It could probably throw russets if crossed with roses like Remember Me.
So, there are plenty of options. Winter is soon so there is a lot of time to think