Big Ben was my first choice. I attemted to purchase it last year… in fact it was #1 my list, and I was told it was available up until the order was sent:(
“before it went into the abyss of lost roses”
Tell me about it. I missed out…
FYI – Cliff’s band stock went to RVR. Your rose may come out of that abyss yet. Further, I got a Big Ben from RU last year, so if you contact them, they may still have more of them.
So it was YOU Kathy that got my Big Ben…
LOL. I guess I will try again from them.
Sometimes one can find Big Ben in death bag sales<<<<<<<<<<<<< …LOL, a great description!
Uhhhh . . . Jon, maybe I did – came in early August '09. It was in their sale list the first week of August last year.
Another option is Royal William, which is a fragrant red descendant of Fragrant Cloud. It has the blue-ing effect and pink tones bred out. Unfortunately, its scent is about half of Fragrant Cloud. Kordes created it from his Feurzauber line from FC. They now seem to be using Christopher Columbus as their orange-toned HT breeder. They may have already or will soon breed a newer equivelent to Royal William.
If you do not care for fragrance, then try my favorite red HT ever – Pride of England. Its pollen only. That plant is insane. It puts Alexander and Queen Elizabeth to shame. I wonder if its triploid?
Kathy, I was not aware of what Cliff was doing with his stock. He had some unique and rare cultivars that I hope are not wasted in the future. That is why I got Painted Desert. I knew it was unique and had potential – not many HT/GR types in the orange range have much health. So I got it even though the timing was bad for me.
Well, the bands are gone in a bulk sale. But he is still trying to sell the mother plants on a “you dig it” basis. Are you planning any trips to SoCal?
Big Ben is beautiful, is it fertile?
Jon,
I was thinking about this convo when I realized that i interpreted the wrong rose. I thought you meant Lover’s Lane for some dumb reason, hence my comments. I do think that Love’s Promise could still be problematic because of stem strength vs. bloom weight vs. stem length. I believe that if you another HT that is dominant with these issues that you will both lose the charm of your hybrid and run the risk of creating a rose which cannot support itself at maturity. I definitely reccommend making stem length/plant architecture just as much a priority as color, health and fragrance. It is too bad that Crimson Glory is such a nasty mildew addict because the proportions would be proper, and it definitely passes them on dominantly (see any floribunda bred from it as an example). It is kind of funny that so many behemoths were bred from such a short HT, lol. Unfortunately, the floppy necks and icky wood would be problematic as well. The weird thing is that HMF lists it all the way up to 7’ but the specimens I have seen are much like Kardinal 85, Kanegem or Freedom in size. Maybe it is because they were all own-root.
If one were to look at the close descendants of Crimson Glory, I think that it is evident that roses like Roundelay and Dame de Coeur fit your ideal. They would not run your vision, they pass on fragrance, and they can readily pass on a disease tolerance most HTs are not capable of doing. A few of the shrub-only type rosarians will grow both because they thrive well in their garden style without the need of chemicals. Gardens of the World, a hybrid of Dame de Couer with one of the nastiest HTs ever created, Sunbright, is equally healthy. Weird, eh? Anyways, I think that either (or both!) of these roses would be a wise option to take, even if you take many options.
Taboo is a magnificent plant and flower in the Santa Clarita Valley. I have an introduction year plant I moved after some years and it took my black belt youngest sister and I with her 17# pry bar to get the monster out of the ground. The root ball and mass, even after being hacked terribly, was too large to fit in the back of her Honda Odyssey! We took it to her house a few miles away and it rebounded nearly immediately. Enormous, healthy, floriferous plant. Those black buds, opening blood red indoors, have always given me the mental image of vase of them on Countess Dracula’s dressing table, her sitting there admiring them with her heart pounding in her chest! LOL! Unfortunately, take the foliage a few miles south of there where rust is an issue and it gives Queen Elizabeth and Simplicity a run for their money!
Chateau de Clos Vougeot, now there is a train wreck! It’s as desirable as Nigrette…nearly black, wonderful fragrance, the most syphilitic foliage on plants which begrudgingly grow inches a year. Vougeot was an early find in my obsession and I worked like a dog to get that danged thing to propagate and grow! The few inches of new growth which it hatefully provides, shoots out parallel to the ground until it breaks into flower, with all of them dropping into the mud around the plant! I kept it for years, just because it was determined NOT to be maintained. Nigrette came from Rosen Schultheis as an import years ago. I HAD to see “The Black Rose of Sangerhausen”. It was the closest to black to that point. The 1930s Kardinal and Taboo can nearly rival it in cold weather, as can Will Rogers and Night, even some of Ollie Weeks’ darkest reds, but none of them were worthwhile where humidity exists. There are just too many bad points to deal with to make using them for breeding worth considering.
Jadae, what do you find nasty about Gardens of the World? I know it grows in every direction and the flowers don’t hold up very long in high heat, but it is bullet proof from the Santa Monicas to the ocean along our coast. Jeri Jennings raves it is the only modern HT she will grow because it is spotless in Camarillo. There is a well established one here which has not even really been pruned and seldom watered and it is spotless. It bakes in the south west corner of the house and chimney, full of dried, spent flowers but with perfect foliage, ground up.
Nothing! I was saying that Sunright is nasty and somehow Gardens of the World is the complete opposite. My point was about how useful Dame de Couer can be even when married to a trashy rose (Sunbright). Gardens of the World is a pretty good HT, and it is a shame its distribution was veyr limited.
I appreciate the suggestion for Dame de Couer. For some reason I hadn’t thought of it. I have to give that one strong consideration- It would be better than Cameron Bohls I think. I have also been strongly considering Roundelay (I do like the seedlings that Paul B. has made with it… the whole pelargonidin thing). I would have to special order it from Vintage and it would be pricey.
…I’ve also been looking at Black Lady 
maybe not the best for architecture?
Actually, I’ve been looking at SO many others.
Aida, Pete Musser, Tess of the D’urbervilles, National Velvet, Luce di Todi- trying to figure out where to go.
National Velvet is one of the ugliest reds I have ever seen in person, lol. The only red by Certified that I ever saw that I felt was pretty was Intrepid. Its basically Ingrid Bergman 2.0 though.
Black Lady and Black Pearl are okay. I thought they were pretty standard in person – nothing bad but nothing awesome. I am currently growing out Painted Desert, which is from the line of roses (Madame Delbard/Samouri types), which I think has a lot of what you need but I do not think the scent is up to par.
Red and fragrance are interesting. I think correlations between a lot of things + red types have developed, but I am unsure if they are static patterns or if they are just lineage inheritances. Its funny because it seems like each type of red (true red, damask red, red-purple, carmine red, red blend) each have pros and cons that the other does not have. It is weird that they are so clearly diversified patterns based on type of red.
By the way, I am 100% will to bet my unborn children (scary thought!) that someone would send you cuttings of Roundelay. Its the type of rose that attracts those who grow it to likely want to share it. If I had it, I’d send it.
By the way, can anyone say anything about Queen Bee? It could be useful … or not.
I enjoyed Queen Bee while I grew it. In the desert, it was clean and flowered well. I don’t remember any fragrance and I did cut flowers for my boss at the time because one of her underlings, who was promoted to buyer status at corporate, disrespectfully tagged her, “Queen Bee”. She loved it, much to his consternation.
I don’t know how it would be in a milder or wetter climate. One of the most disappointing of Buck’s roses here is Golden Unicorn. It is as rusty in Encino as Wandrin’ Wind was in Newhall.
Roundelay was one of the most impressive beds at Exposition Park Rose Garden in LA before budget cuts destroyed the place. All plants stood tall with FOLIAGE and flowers. It’s an impressive rose.
Yeah, thats why I used spanish, lol. There was one I used that was probably legally inappropriate lol (borracha).
Back to the topic – I was thinking about it again. Jon, what do you think about using Neptune? I think it is possible to get what you want from it and it can produce fragrant reds. Everything about it is “short n fat” which is kind of odd because Blue Nile is a linear giant. Neptune definitely takes after Big Purple and Blueberry Hill in plant dimensions. Blueberry Hill seems to have a dominant affinity for widening the growth architecture of it’s kids – something it has in common with Playboy. I was extremely surprised by the amount of reds I got from crossing Neptune with yellow blends, yellows, etc. And then I was annoyed But if red is your goal, then this may be helpful.
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Blueberry Hill has a nasty habit of shutting down in high heat. It may grow, but it won’t flower when it remains in the nineties and above.
Weird! Its a weed here. I noticed that the petal count reduced and the flowers tended to sport dark violet streaks in mid-summer @ Heirlooms.
Yes I agree with Jadae, you will definitely get reds from Neptune and you will get great fragrance with it also. <}:^)