Who knows. High Hopes, a beautiful climber with sweetly fragrant, florist-like roses if you dont live in mildew country, has the most awesome canes I have ever seen. Yeah, the new foliage is briefly red, but not long enough for most people to recall. But it is the canes that turn deep wine purple during the winter. They stand out during the dormant season like no other roses canes I have ever seen before. Yet, with all of this going on… the blooms are a shimmering salmon pink. They were the farthest thing from purple, mauve or red possible.
Go figure.
Hmmm, this talk of germinations right now… This is my first season with OP seedlings and I just did what I do with trees and shrubs…which is, just plant 5 seeds to each 5 inch pot and leave in the garden all winter. No lights, no heat, just waiting. Is this OK? I wouldn’t expect to see much for at least another 6 weeks or so. Should I bring the pots in the greenhouse. Bottom heat in one of the propagators? Suddenly thrown into confusion as I have hundreds on the go.
The first of the true leaves of the purple seedling are coming out purple as well. It’s cool looking.
Today:
Autumn Sunset x (Golden Angel x L83) Hoping for a very healthy, fragrant and smaller stature yellow or peach even.
Midnight Blue OP Purple of course. 
Campanula,
No two people on this forum use the same method.
Our method has evolved over 30 years but still has huge deficiencies.
Good luck with your seeds.
Campanula, rose seeds germinate all by themselves all over Britain and probably have in your allotment. There are various things many do in all aspects of rose growing (or just gardening in general) which may or may not be necessary, but which are psychologically satisfying. Personally, I’d try what you instinctively do with anything else and see how it works. You can start “fixing” it if it doesn’t work. I’d suspect you will have germinations without anything special. You’ve grown everything else from seed, roses ain’t that hard! Besides, what works for someone in one climate, won’t work for someone in a different one. You MUST post photos of your baby Hulthemias, though!
Campanula, I now deduce that you are in UK. If you go to the main page of this site there is a listing for articles. On there is a review I wrote about germination, with I hope, everything published that has numbers in it over the past 100 years or so. Kim is correct, it’s done every which way, and varies by climate and cultivar. In the review is a bunch of stuff from Wisley back in the 1930s doing basically what you are doing. I’d give the seeds only about 1 sq inch myself, so it depends what size pot you mean to plant 5 seeds in. That’s exactly what I do for apples and pears and plums in a 5 inch pot. Those I have to transplant out for several years to get fruit of course. But with roses, most people are chucking out all the ones that don’t bloom within 3 months, so you thin them quickly. Of course for precious crosses, like hulthemias you may want to keep them for a couple years so wouldn’t want more than a few/pot. Expect maybe 50% germ at best so perhaps 10 seeds/ half gallon volume pot is OK.
Vermin and slugs may be your biggest trouble, which is why many people start them sort of indoors (coldframe, cool greenhouse, refrigerator.)
Good luck and have fun
Larry Davis
Well Blimey O Riley! What a shock (and thank you very much, Larry) for directing me to this article which I had unaccountably skipped over - probably because it was a fait accompli for mine as they were already in pots. Anyway, may as well make all the mistakes at once. Some of the procedures though! I really try to replicate what might happen in a natural situation and, because I always generously oversow, I usually allow for (high) attrition. Nowhere, can I imagine a little rose seed somehow falling into an old apple (Bob Harvey) and, in truth, whilst I recall these issues coming up in my horticultural studies, knowing what a huge gap there is between theory and practice (at least for me), I probably spent those classes doodling or smirking at the youngsters and their tyrant tutor, toiling outside. So yep, I sort of did what I do with sorbus, amelanchier and fruit seeds…but this has been a cold winter and the pots have frozen more than once.So, time to meddle a bit and because I have sown 80 or so 1 litre pots (5inches, 5 seeds to each), I will move half a dozen or so into the propagator. Failing that, there is always the usual gardeners aphorism - will do better next year.
Slightly aghast at prospects of using Gibberellins - I believe I will accept lower germination rates rather than mucking about with hormones and the like. My potting medium is John Innes No 1 and vermiculite - 4:1 ratio with alpine grit on the surface. Too late to do much 'cept keep fingers crossed but I will try to distill the essence of a good germination method and probably try out quite a few of the forum suggestions. I do like to dive in with enthusiasm but I also want to learn…so, I am not abandoning hope just yetbut be warned, folks, I will be leaning heavily on your expertise.
Before you begin meddling with them, Campanula, you may want to see what works without a lot of effort. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised and more than a little amazed how easily some of those things will work without your help.
I’ve done a fair amount of experimenting myself, and it honestly appears the less I do to/for the seed, the faster and better they germinate. I usually use the refrigerator to hold them until it’s cool enough to plant, but didn’t last year and they came up like grass seed! This year, it’s wetter and they remained in the refrigerator until I planted. So far (Thanksgiving until now) I have six seedlings out of the three hundred plus I planted individually in peat pellets. These are the “special” ones I wanted to keep track of. From those sewn in my traditional method…nothing. But, hopefully, there is time and more rain remaining before the Bellows of Hades start here. You really need to see how little you MUST do to have success before you start “fixing” things.
Campanula,
I plant my seeds directly outdoors into individual pots as soon as they start to sprout, after keeping them in the fridge for 45-60 days. I accidentally turned the fridge temps down instead of up this year when it got cold outside, and the seeds froze solid for about 2-3 weeks before I noticed it. I think I may have had 2-3 affected by this so far-they came up looking frostbit and promptly died, but I have 148 sprouted so far that look good. My only problem with planting outdoors (three actually) was with rodents, snails & slugs, and I didn’t fertilize the new seedlings enough-but that is all corrected now and I am enjoying little successes and am slowly branching into crosses with species and more interesting backgrounds. This is outdoors in So. California, so very little frost other than the accidental fridge. Good luck!
Oh Slap me - and thanks for the sanity, Kim. For a while I even started feeling glum because I felt so distantly removed from being a good gardener. You are completely right though, life is very tenacious and will always find a way, often surprising us. So yep, hoping to steer a path between keeping it simple (cos I know my failings) but striving to improve.
One of the most often offered pieces of advice Ralph Moore gave was, “Once you think you know the rules, the rose changes them!” Usually followed by, “The rose will find the way.” He was the basic pragmatist. Whatever worked. He kept it simple, though explored and experimented in all directions, but when it came down to the bottom line, it was as simple and pretty much “rustic” as possible. It didn’t make him financially rich, but it kept him busily satisfying his “magnificent obsession” and his mind for more than 85 years. And it allowed him to create some pretty wild genetic combinations. Yes, he well knew the name, “Dr. Moreau”! LOL!
His work may not have made him financially rich but it sure left a legacy. How many of us will make such a contribution to rose breeding? It sure is fun though.
…and I meant that in a good way.
I am a firm believer in trying to replicate the natural way of things so all the acid and enzyme stuff was interesting as a substitute for passing through the digestive system of a bird or small mammal. Some of the lengths these sciencey types go to though - rummaging through cow pats is, frankly, a step too far (not that I am squeamish but…) Also, it seems to me that many of these experiments with thousands of seeds are vitually worthless unless the results are replicated several times…and with such variation between germination rates, I cannot see how many of these experiments are really ‘proving’ much. Still, it is a good 40 years since I worked through chemistry and biology exams, so what do I know. I planted my seeds over a week at the end of November so we are only 60 or so days into the scarifying. Normally, I would not really expect to see much until around March so I am just going to keep my fingers crossed. However, next year, I probably will make use of the fridge.
Ah, Jiffy 7s - I love these little pellets but they are not cheap, even buying in bulk. I only use them for special things now. Do you take the outside net off when you plant, Kim? I found this made a considerable difference, even though roots will happily grow through. Also, you don’t find bits of net in your beds and borders, years later (they really ought to have something a bit more degradeable around them). You can get peat free but, to my shame, I am still clinging on to my use of peat (although certainly not using the nasty multi-purpose stuff sold everywhere in the UK).Seed sowing has sometimes utterly defeated me (heucheras) while others have taken years to get going (paeonies, trilliums). My record wait was 6 years from seed to flower (trilliums) which then promptly died out (unsurprisingly, in my sandy, alkaline soil). Best seeds were dieramas - again, a long wait but they are soooo expensive to buy as plants. For years, I had no greenhouse so every window, every table was filled with seedlings for months on end. Three years ago,though, I finally got a decent 10x12 greenhouse (yay, freecycle) and the seed sowing went into overdrive again. New (to me) this year, are several lights (red and blue spectrum) but I am slow to catch on to tech stuff so they are just hanging there at the moment (might try messing about with gesneriads).
Just as a sidebar, I wonder how hybridising is panning out regarding gender balance. Always used to be heavily male dominated (dynastic urges, womb envy, who knows?). Hope more women are dipping their toes in.
I am guessing spatial mastery, as well as control over the physical realm will often make plant hybridizing male inclined. It is probably easier for more males to objectify a species than it is for the same amounnt of females to do the same. However, I am not saying that it is not possible in females, but it is definitey not as strong of a pattern due to biochemicals and developed brain pathways.
There are also those like both my gf and I. She can memorize numbers, do physics in her sleep and ramble on about 4D mathematics, fractals, etc. My eyes seriously glaze over. I studied horticulture, landscape and social science, LOL! Talk about gender sterotyping swaps. I can talk and type x10 faster than she can and she can read x10 (and likely listen accurately) faster than I can. Her classes were mostly male. My classes were mostly female. Yet we are both heterosexual with bilateral brains. A strong relating theme between the both of us, other than a smart mouth with a sharp tongue, is a fairly swift sense of empathy and strong desire towards design, color, etc. I would say that we are unusual, and probably not on the norm of a bell curve, lol. So who knows with hybridizers. The one thing they ALL have in common, is a desire for an outcome, a desire to create and a desire to INQUIRE. My step mom always told me I was annoying because I would never stop asking questions. It was my pleasure!
No, Suzan, I don’t remove the net from the peat pellets. It’s never seemed an issue with roots and I figured some blinking gopher may eat one and have digestive problems from it. Buying in bulk, I can get them for about 6 cents a piece, which is still a lot to plant one seed, unless it’s something special. The ones which anger me are the retailers who ONLY sell them a dozen to a box for $5. Yea Home Despot! I cleaned out the local garden center chain of all they had in the San Fernando and Santa Clarita Valleys.
Michael, I think you’re correct about the inquiring mind being a requirement to breed roses. Perhaps, it’s required for animal breeding, though I believe a stronger desire for profit is likely required for that. It’s a whole lot easier to go away for the weekend and leave the roses to the automatic system than it is with puppies or horses. I love the two crumb snatchers here at home, but DANG I often wish I could take out their batteries! Worse than flipping toddlers! I’ve only known one lady rose breeder, or perhaps should say “know” as she’s very much alive, though no longer breeding roses. She has sons and daughters but seems very much the mother of all boys. You can just tell whether a woman has one or the other by their demeanor. Daughters seem to make you more respectable and proper. Sons make you one of the guys! She’s one of the guys, the GOOD guys! I never had the pleasure of meeting Dee Bennett nor Betty Jacobs (yet), but Laurie Chaffin is one you’d truly enjoy. Neat lady! She definitely has the inquiring mind, sharp as a needle when it comes to what to boink with what.
I guess my inquiries are the normal off shoot of the “experiments” I am accused of as a child. Allegedly, mom never knew precisely what she would find where, but there was always a watchful eye out to make sure whatever it would be wouldn’t be corrosive or explosive! LOL!
today:
Westerland x Cherry Sunblaze
Midnight Blue OP
Westerland OP
Cherry Sunblaze is a sport of Debut that has prolific bloom and great disease resistance. I’m assuming that the WxCS cross will be pink but hope that maybe red with some scent on a miniature plant will come out instead.
Just potted up 20 seedlings into 4 inch pots this week. My first germinations were three from a cross of HeritageXBurgundy Iceberg. I am one of the outnumbered female hybridizers although I am a novice just getting started. To me, breeding roses is like having children, each one has their own personality.
By the way I am the mother of daughters, but the grandmother of 3 boys and 1 girl with a tomboy streak. I am also a farmer’s daughter with dirt in my veins who lives in town and “farms” every spot available on my lot. I inherited a love of horticultural experimentation from my Swiss Grandfather who farmed in Western Iowa and South Texas.
Two years ago I also started hybridizing daylilies and hope to see my first new daylily blooms this spring, from the 200+ seedlings from my first year of hybridizing. I also have 435 new seedlings from last springs crosses.
I think hybridizers all share a certain creative bent.
Joan,
Don’t you wish daylilies seedlings would bloom as early as most rose seedlings do? It’s such a long wait. I hope you get something nice from your Heritage x Burgandy Iceberg cross.
Rob
Rob,
The daylilies are much easier to polinate and germinate, but yes, it does take at least two years to see a bloom, whereas the roses are more temperamental to polinate and germinate, but the gratification comes more quickly. Beginning this year I should have new blooms every year.
This is my first year using Burgundy Iceberg so I am anxious to see if the color is dominate. Heritage along with Honey Perfume are two of my favorite Mother Roses.