What are your seed-parents and their challenges?

General Discussion
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1

Since I’m new, I look for more good-seed parents, but I don’t know much about their vice or virtues. What pollens can I use to fix the below:

  1. Lynnie - vigorous, nice shape, DR, long-lasting bloom. Minus: she has no scent, how can I fix this?

  2. Marie Pavie - same as above, great scent. What are the challenges in breeding?

  3. Pat Austin - my own-root is zero diseases, glossy foliage, compact vase shape 1.5’ x 1.5’. Minus: flower blows fast, fries in sun.

  4. Basyes Blueberry - strong wild rose scent, DR and drought-tolerant. Minus: lax, loose leaves & branches, not bushy enough.

I also have Honey Bouquet (tiny BS), and the rest are 100% clean as own-roots: Wise Portia, Pink Peace, Deep Purple, Arthur Bell. Are these good seed-parents? Thank you for input on YOUR seed-parents, so I know what to add to my garden.

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‘Arthur Bell’ rarely passes on yellow in breeding, for some reason. I stopped using it because of this. Most seedlings are pink, even when using another strong yellow as a mate.

‘Lynnie’ has been the real surprise for me: boldly colored offspring with excellent vigor and disease resistance in many.

As for ‘Basye’s Blueberry’, I can’t imagine a more bushy plant! Are you sure you have the right rose??! I’ve used it in breeding and the results, while always in the pink scheme, have been surprisingly good. Definitely one to pursue in depth.

As for the Austin roses, there isn’t a single one I would use for breeding anymore. They all bring poor or dreadful disease problems into the mix, and often the plants do the octopus thing and must be manicured to have any sense of restraint and character. Ugh. (Well, ‘Lilian Austin’ is one possible exception, but it is a truly lousy seed parent; best only for pollen)

My best seed parents of the last 7 or 8 years have been proprietary hybrids of my own making. If I were to continue with hybridizing (which I do not plan on), I think I would work a lot more with my ‘Castle Bravo’ (aka 174-02-17), since it has been remarkably capable of producing seedlings that are 100% blackspot free. (see, for example, ‘Cannikin’) I don’t know where it got this ability from, given its parentage, but I suppose these things do happen spontaneously if you are very lucky or raise enough seedlings over time.

Other plants I consider worth pursuing as breeders would include ‘Commander Gillette’/Basye’s Legacy, Simonet’s “Red Dawn X Suzanne” (I have a couple of rooted cuttings available) and ‘Suzanne’ itself, which has bred some surprisingly interesting things for me. See 124-10-02 for example. I have also found L83 (Svejda) and ‘William Baffin’ to be valuable breeders (although the latter only as a pollen parent, of course; you won’t likely get seeds to germinate, at least not without a lot of trouble)

Since I believe that there is no single goal more important than resolving this genus’ horrific and crippling disease problem, I am suggesting the above cultivars with that goal in mind, and all other traits (such as bloom longevity and fragrance) must take a back seat to this imperative. It is my perception that most hybridizers of the past century have been all too happy to let the disease issue slide whenever a pretty bloom presented itself, believing that the blackspot problem could be easily remedied with chemicals. It can, of course, but having been there and done that, I will do it no longer. I will not lug around a thirty pound sprayer anymore, loaded with dubious concoctions, applying said mixture every ten days all through the growing season. What an outrageous compromise that is, to have “healthy” foliage and attractive shrubs. I think its time for the ARS* paradigm of “better living through chemistry” to be retired in favor of plants that actually are healthy and can be grown with no more care than the average Petunia. It can be done; I have such plants in my own collection.

*although to be fair, the ARS has been a vehicle for such concepts more than actually inventing them; the chemical industry is responsible for that.

3

I like your train of thought listing the virtues vs the vices. I will however say that the plant needs to take precedence over the flower. The days of flowers over plants are beginning to come to an end.

How old is your Basyes Blueberry? My guess is not very old. I thinking it should fill in pretty soon. Among the ones you listed this is the one I would work with most. But I also am a fan of getting rose species genes into the modern gene pool.

I like the idea of using Marie Pavie. Many of the older polyanthas are wonderful plants. It is a credit to the plants that these varieties have survived even after floribundas were introduced. I have no idea how disease resistant this one is or if it sets seed. Never have grown it myself. But many polyantha need to be used more.

Austins are usually good in my climate but anytime I step out of my climate I see them falling apart. I guess they do better in England. Perhaps it a pacific race of black spot.

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I looked at Lynnie which I was not familiar with basically because Paul recommended it. The parentage is great. Kim that is a very nice cross.

But anyways I noticed the picture of Lynnie was yours Chicago Zone 5. So went I through your photos on HMF. Most of the varieties I do not know. But 2 caught my eye. I do not know if these set well but I do know they are great plants and may be worth the try Flower Carpet Pink and Blue Mist.

5

One last suggestion after looking at your photos. I would study the Buck roses Buck, Dr. Griffith J. they have many of the qualities you find important and over all they are great plants with some exceptions.

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If I were to continue with hybridizing (which I do not plan on)

You are being way too hard on yourself.

plants that actually are healthy and can be grown with no more care than the average Petunia.

You are being way to easy on petunias.

there is no single goal more important than resolving this genus’ horrific and crippling disease problem

I agree but feel that breeding for hardiness is equally important and goes hand in hand with breeding for disease resistance.

The more failure I experience at this endeavor the more credit I give to our predecessors.

Castle Bravo

You really do hate blackspot.

1 Like
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Last week I gave a presentation about hybridizing at my local society. We had the presentation approved for a CR credit. Even before we were approved, the ARS sent me six files to use with the presentation. Three of the titles were: Diagnosis and Control of Rose Diseases, Fungicide Resistance Management, Fungicides and other plant disease management approaches. The other three were directly related to CRs getting credit for attending. I conveniently forgot to print out and bring copies of these files. I thought about using the files as part of the reason why I was hybridizing, but decided against it. On the brighter side, I did listen to a presentation by the new Vice President of ARS last year. She clearly is for sustainable gardening, and integrated pest management. She is quite vocal about it. So, things might be looking up in that regard.

Andy

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I agree with Paul Barden’s perspective and thank you, Adam, for great suggestions on Buck roses, polyanthas and others. More work should be done with polyanthas. In August we had week-long temp. near 100’s, and the 1,200 bushes at Cantigny park looked bad. I was so disgusted with roses, they were all big, wild, and spotted - esp. Austins, which were over my head. I went home and my Marie Pavie was like a Beauty Queen compared to them.

Our spring and fall weather here is very wet, week-long non-stop rain. Last year we had 49" of summer rain, plus 40+ inches of melted snow. I’m on prescribed vitamin D, due to lack of sun. Surprisingly, all my 15 Austins are clean, except for Radio Times, which I dumped acid fertilizer as an experiment. But it has minor BS, no leaf drop. At first I thought it’s my alkaline soil, but the library’s hedge of Lady Elsie May, has really bad BS - so do the park’s Austins (they spray). I don’t spray, and why are my own-root Austins clean, with Golden Cel. 100% free of blackspot?

It dawned on me that the park’s roses are grafted on Dr. Huey, so are the library’s. Raising own-roots take partial shade and daily watering initially …park & library can’t baby them. Water-hogs grafted on Dr. Huey is NOT a good idea. Dr. Huey likes it dry, water-hogs don’t, this conflict is enough to create rust, BS, mildew on needs that are not met. The parent of Dr. Huey is Gruss an Teplitz, notorious for Blackspots.

Many years ago I lost the entire HTs garden, bought as 2-gallon healthy plants from a nursery - they were grafted on Dr. Huey, and came down with black canker in a wet winter. Hardy own-roots don’t have that “Gruss an Teplitz” BS-shadow, and don’t have zone 6b Dr. Huey’s restraint, and bloom 1 month ahead of those grafted on Dr. Huey.

9

Hi Chicago,

More work is being done with Polyanthas, thank goodness–have you seen Kathy Zuzek’s Northern Accents series (Sven, Lena, Ole etc.) and David Zlesak’s polyanthas such as Candy Oh! Vivid Red? All of these set hips and can be interesting seed parents.

Betsy

Minnesota zone 4

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Good. You got that :wink: Trust Don to spot such nuance.

And yes… I loathe the disease; it not only disfigures, it decimates. In my acre of roses, I would say that of the commercially available varieties out there, perhaps 5% of them grows well and with little or no disease. The other 95% must be sprayed to hold their foliage. (the majority of that 5% is Gallicanae-derived, and species crosses) That is a pretty shocking statistic, IMO. I have Two Hybrid Tea types left out there: ‘Sutters Gold’ and ‘Queen Elizabeth’. The former gets plenty of disease, but I keep it (for now) anyway, because of its amazing fragrance. Old Lizzie, on the other hand, is as bland as they come, but it gets little disease and is not hindered in the slightest when it does shed some leaves to blackspot.

I have certainly come to feel that the blackspot problem simply cannot be “fixed” (in the sense of eliminating susceptibility entirely) except perhaps by identifying regionally appropriate cultivars, and that hybridizers will face compromise after compromise in order to find any plants among their seedlings that they can regard as redeeming/worthwhile. I’m not up to the task of fixing all that is broken in the genus. I should have stopped when all I wanted was to breed a new group of Gallicas.

11

Thank you, Betsy, for info. about the newly bred polyanthas by Kathy Zuzek and David Zlesak.

Paul, Queen Elizabeth was least-affected by BS when I had a BS-fest in my last acidic garden. In my present alkaline garden, BS is NOT a problem. Soil pH plays a factor. I went out to inspect my garden after 1 week of non-stop rain. Lynnie got BS - I put acid fertilizer as an experiment. Honey Bouquet has tiny bit of BS - also with acid fertilizer. 13 Austins are 100% clean, not a trace of BS, with soil pH over 7.7.

Here’s the link to the farm report, http://magissues.farmprogress.com/PRA/PF04Apr06/pra11.pdf

The report ranked different treatments on soybean crop: fungicides, lime, sulphate of potash, early fall fertilization, etc… The highest yield was using lime pellets with sulphate of potash, which BEAT using fungicides. Lime pellets raise the soil pH, thereby fungi can’t germinate. Sulphate of potash provides potassium, necessary for crop yield and to fight disease. I wish I had mulched my roses with lime pellets in my last acidic garden, rather than with acidic pine nuggets. Now I mulch my Austins with horse manure. The stable here uses lime to deodorize horse stalls. Lime is a natural fungicide. Lynnie doesn’t get horse manure, she gets acid fertilizer, with a tiny bit of BS - not bad.

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I went out to inspect Lilian Austin, which doesn’t get horse manure nor acid fertilizer, 2 lowest leaves have blackspot - not bad (my soil pH is 7.7). Radio Times with acid fertilizer still have BS. I’ll kill Lilian Austin once the rain stops, as own-root she’s the most thorny, and least vigorous. The grafted Lilian at the rosepark is huge (4’ x 5’), my own-root second year is tiny at 0.75’ x 1.5’.

Here’s a quote from Old Heirloom roses website: "Own root roses are true to the variety’s growth traits & habits. For example, a Henry Hudson rose is supposed to grow only between 3’-4’ tall & wide then that’s what it will do on it’s own roots. Budded or grafted Henry

Hudson’s can grow up to 5’ or more." Pictures of grafted William Shakespeare 2000 look just like Dr. Huey with spreading 6’ canes. My 2nd-year own-root is 1’ x 1’ like a mini-rose, very compact. When own-roots are that small, there’s a more efficient uptake of potassium and water, thus are healthier.

13

While that may be true, the fungi that affect rose foliage germinates on the foliage, not on the soil, so I doubt this has much bearing on the action of Diplocarpon rosae spores on the leaf surface, where the action is.

I think caution is warranted when suggesting that an acidic soil condition alone is the factor that determines blackspot susceptibility in an experiment like this. It is well known that sudden bursts of nitrogen (particularly immediately available nitrogen) can cause rapid, soft growth that is much more prone to disease.

But how much of a factor, I wonder. My garden is typical Willamette Valley clay, and alkaline, and yet I have a severe Blackspot issue here. I think it is difficult to point to lone features of a garden and draw definitive conclusions. I would be interested in seeing a control study engineered to determine the effect of soil pH on susceptibility to Diplocarpon rosae. Has it been done, I wonder?

14

Nature conducts the experiment itself wherever the soil (and water) is alkaline. By the ‘pH postulate’, then, blackspot should be no problem in, say, the American desert southwest.

Anybody down there in tumbleweed country care to weigh in?

15

It would be SUBLIME if that was the only factor. Heaven knows WE have “alkalinity” out the wazoo and we CAN get black spot, mildew and RUST. If we get humidity and heat, there are BS and rust. If we get humidity and too high heat, there is little disease of any kind. I have a few spots where I can put a rose and it WILL get sick. The air circulation, reflected/radiated heat and trapped moisture are perfect. I have found a few varieties I can FORCE to get sick simply by drying them out.

I would believe pH could affect health through the immune system and its function, uptake of nutrients, etc. but as Paul pointed out, soil pH isn’t going to have a great deal of effect as to whether or not a spore germinates ON a leaf surface under appropriate conditions.

16

I’ve used a few of the Buck roses as seed parents - Carefree Beauty and Prairie Harvest. Joyce Fleming’s Alberta and Prairie Celebration an AgCanada rose have been great seed parents, too. I’ve started using a couple of mine own seedlings too - a pink P.Harvest x Champlain seedling, a red Alberta x John Cabot seedling, a yellow Alberta x John Cabot seedling, and an orange/red mini moss P. Celebration x Paintbrush seedling.

17

One rose that I have enjoyed using is Curly Pink (Brownell Family), all offspring have produced good form, vigour and excellent health here in OZ

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Thank you, Warren, for that recommendationn of Curly Pink, good hardiness for my zone 5a.

Thank you, Lizlee, for info. on Carefree Beauty and Carefree Harvest & Alberta and Prairie Celebration.

Thanks Paul and Kim for helping me with the puzzle. I do lots of crazy experiments in my garden … I used to be a chemistry major for 2 years in college before I switched and got B.S. in Computer Science. There are many factors involved:

  1. Own-root versus grafted on Dr. Huey. What’s natural for the plant vs. what’s forced on the plant. The small size of own-root means less demand on water and potassium. EarthCo. tested my soil to be marginally deficient in potassium, and its booklet stated that 1/3 of soil tested are deficient in potassium, needed to fight diseases, root growth, and bloom production.

  2. The high potassium in horse manure. Per University of Kentucky’s data on Organic Fertilizers and Composts for Vegetable Transplants: Potassium in cow manure is 191.7 ppm, in composted worm casting is 1,751 ppm, and in horse manure is 3,476 ppm - compared that to 82.6 ppm in MetroMix 560. I used Hollytone (fast acid and SLOW organics) on Honey Bouquet, plus a heap of horse manure on top.

The blackspots on Honey Bouquet are tiny dots - not bad, if I take a picture it won’t show up. Comte de Chambord in a pot gets lemonnade water, no horse manure, and the BS spots are huge and gross. It has a sticky and wet surface topping of alfalfa meal. The other mini gets lemmonade water, no sticky topping, BS spots are tiny, not bad.

  1. Paul Neyron in a different soil mix with gypsum & tannin and the surface is always dry with perlite - zero blackspots & perfect health. Thornless blue rose from Robert Neil is 100% clean with the same soil plus afalfa meal in a windless spot. LynGriffin x Chinatown from Neil is 100% clean, no wind shady spot. Rootings of Neil’s Ab.Darby x Chinatown are 100% clean, same soil. All of them get lemmonade water.

  2. What’s on the surface do get splashed up to the leaves. I spent time checking on that info. The soil underneath may be acidic or alkaline, but what’s mulched plays a key factor. If you google “Artillery fungus” or “Shotgun fungus”, you’ll see the info. The rose park here do not use any mulch, it’s just bare dirt. There’s a few soil studies that documented bacteria in soil and in horse manure do suppress pathogenic fungi.

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My typo: it should be Prairie Harvest, not Carefree Harvest as a good seed parent, per Lizlee’s info.

Paul Neyron and Neil’s stuff are in 45% composted pine bark, perlite, LIME, vermicullite, peatmoss, and gypsum. Lime as a fungicide and surface that dries fast are key factors. Fluffy horse manure dries faster than soil and bark mulch. After 1-week of non-stop rain, here’s the ranking of worst BS to somewhat:

  1. Firefighter (Hacienda) mulched with a bucket of rotten tomatoes & kitchen scraps Acid surface

  2. Comte de Chambord mulched with sticky alfalfa meal and watered with lemmonade (no sugar) pH of alfalfa meal is 5 to 6.

  3. Lynnie mulched with Hollytone (sulfur, feather meal, chicken manure, cottonseedmeal, alfalfa meal), plus wet leaves. Acid surface.

  4. Honey Bouquet mulched with Hollytone, then horse manure on top.

Check out this abstract:

Contrasting Soil pH Effects on Fungal and Bacterial Growth – 1 by Department of Microbial Ecology, Lund University, Sweden . 2. Soil Science Department, Rothamsted Research, United Kingdom. ABSTRACT "The influence of pH on the two principal decomposer groups in soil, fungi and bacteria, was investigated … This experimental location provides a uniform pH gradient, ranging from pH 8.3 to 4.0, within 180 m in a silty loam soil. … The growth-based measurements revealed a fivefold decrease in bacterial growth and a fivefold increase in fungal growth with lower pH. … Below pH 4.5 there was universal inhibition of all microbial variables.

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One data point doesn’t mean very much. If you aren’t even comparing techniques on the same cultivar, this isn’t providing useful data. When you have grown ONE cultivar under all four of these test conditions, and subsequently found distinct effects in that one cultivar, then you are starting to see meaningful data.