I wonder if those whose experience does not support the pH theory do not have some other variable which is offsetting it such as the use of chemical sprays that are killing the friendly fungi that would of have built up at the optimium pH.
See, for example:
Not in my case. I spray water from the hose, ONLY. No pesticides, no fungicides, no “chemicals” of any kind, other than the nasty Department of Water and Power city water. I don’t even fertilize in my garden. Period. The “mulch” is shredded plant material from the hill. The roses can still get black spot, mildew and rust.
Kim, city water. Could the chlorine and florine in your water cause a lack of friendlies? Do you see long white mycorrhizal fungi extending from your rose roots?
Haven’t noticed anything, but I also haven’t looked. What gophers don’t eat, the blamed moles disturb, so I just keep pumping the water in to the soil to settle it back as best I can.
I have posted this information (or something similar) many times on the web:
"There is a another choice. This choice is to allow the friendly fungi to reach equilibrium with the blackspot. This choice comes under the heading of “biocontrol”.
The following may be useful in putting the concept of biocontrol into layman terms:
"Disease-suppressive soil microorganisms have been found in many places. In monoculture wheat the severity of “take all” disease often decreases within three to five years. This phenomenon is known as “take all decline,” and is considered an effective natural control. Although the mechanisms are not completely understood, the decline is associated with changes in soil microorganisms that compete with and prey on the fungus. Melon plants grown in the Chateaurenard region of France do not show Fusarium wilt symptoms even though the fungus is present in the soil. Soils with suppressive characteristics tend to develop slowly and are usually found in fields where perennial crops or monocultures have been grown for many years.
Suppressiveness may be lost if the monoculture is interrupted even for one year, or if pesticides are applied. For example, researchers first recognized soils suppressive to cereal-cyst nematode when nematode numbers increased after application of a broad-spectrum biocide. Many species of fungi and bacteria in the genera Trichoderma, Streptomyces, Bacillus and Pseudomonas suppress diseases, but at this time only a few strains are commercially available. Additional commercial products may be available soon, however, as this is currently an active research area."
The quote was taken from:
Http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/sustainable/peet/IPM/diseases/org_cert.html
A scientific study (2007) of biocontrol of blackspot of roses:
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Thread where the above appeared:
With an alcaline soil and a very different climate I have the same desease condition Paul B experience.
And just as the others contamination is temperature and moisture dependant.
Hts and Fls all are summer defoliated just as Austins: no exceptions here.
Most fade to death in three years.
Easy Does It and Julia Child among the last ones that failed.
Most species if not all or always immune build up easily.
From Teresa: I appreciate all perspectives given by Paul, Henry, Kim, and Pierre. The key to learning is to have an open-mind, to explore all possibilities, rather than locking one’s mind on a presumption.
I like Paul Barden’s point of have the SAME plant, but subject it to 10 different conditions, under 2 categories of Own-root vs. Grafted on Dr. Huey 1) mulched with horse manure, high in potassium 2) mulched with decayed bark 3) mulched with organic acid material 4) mulched with lime pellets 5) mulched with wet leaves 6) bare dirt, but test its pH 7) mulched with dry perlite 8) mulched with tomato branches (there’s an article of using tomato leaves as fungicide). 9) mulched with lime pellets and sulfate of potash 10) mulched with lime pellets and horse manure. I would need 20 of the same rose: 10 own-roots, and 10 grafted on Dr. Huey. I don’t have room for them, and hopefully a commercial grower would undertake such experiment.
As to whether tap water high in chlorine has a factor in roses’ diseases: NO, they are healthier when I watered them with my alkaline water at pH of 8, high in lime. It’s the 1-week of non-stop rain that bring BS (pH of rain is acidic at 5 to 5.6). Three major factors:
The level of potassium in one’s soil to fight diseases. As the rose gets bigger, more potassium is drawn from the soil to make huge flushes - thus the decline and outbreak of BS in 3rd year. Horse manure, high in potassium, helps tremendously with the health of my roses. I visited 2 rose parks in August: Cantigny with 1,200 roses - and another smaller park inside a horse ranch. The smaller park with horse manure is MUCH healthier than the big park (they spray). I made Honey Bouqet break out in BS first by applying Hollytone, then I applied horse manure. Its potassium stopped the black spots from enlarging, and new growth are 100% clean.
Own-root vs. grafted, what’s natural for the plant versus what’s forced upon it. Own-root is smaller, thus demands less water and potassium in the long run. Own-root doesn’t get restricted by Dr. Huey’s propensity for BS.
If the surface soil is wet with sticky acidic material. it’s a great place for fungi to germinate, and get splashed up by wind or water droplets. If the surface soil dries fast, such as with perlite, sand, or fluffy saw dust bedding in horse manure - there’s less germination of blackspots spores. Adding lime, a fungicide, also prevents germination of spores. I took microbiology in college, and innoculated yeast in various mediums to record their best growth. It’s the class that thrilled me the most, Genetics class was another favorite which got me interested in breeding roses.
I forget to thank Andy, from Colorado, for recommending Flower Carpet Coral for my seed-parent. Yes, it does set seeds - and it’s very drought-tolerant, I don’t water it for the past several years. It has zero diseases, it grew its own root since I buried its bud union 6" deep.
I mentioned using Curly PInk in this thread , doing this cross Baronne Ed Rothschild X Curly Pink , I had the pleasure of given this little fellow.
[attachment 1187 5h9g1.jpg]
Warren, that is magnificent !
o_O
Is it fragrant like it’s dadda’s line?
Warren, that’s stunning - my type of rose. One cannot ask for more from a red rose … I got to check on that lineage.
I hung out in the Roses forum, and checked for info. dated back to several years. Recently people are dumping their roses, thanks to the drought in U.S. I started it first by listing the many big Austins I want to give away free. Yesterday a person 37 minutes away from me, listed 150 free roses for grabs (a wide variety). Also another person in Ontario is giving away his 50+ of roses.
The village raised water-price many times for the past years. Only one person who doesn’t have a high water bill: New York, zone 4, with higher rainfall and lower summer temp. She said her roses don’t need to be water. We have hot summer up to 100 degrees in Chicagoland, I don’t water my landscape roses, but I have to water Austins. The future with higher water price means a need for drought-tolerant roses, like Flower Carpet and Lynnie, both can handle drought better than Knock-out.
I groomed and fed a relatively decent sized garden this year to prepare it for the owner’s two daughters’ weddings in it. Most of the roses are Icebergs and Knock Outs, plus probably a dozen and a half HT standards, another two dozen “specialty” roses she has collected; an enormous iron pergola with half a dozen huge Sally Holmes and assorted landscape shrubs to fill the spaces. It’s actually very attractive and, for anything like it, rather low maintenance.
It usually looks “nice”, but she wanted it “florist window, over the top”, so we’ve fed it heavily with a combination of organic and inorganic feed and I urged her to bump up the water to encourage the “opulance” she desired. It worked (of course), but, even though she’s in a much cooler area than where I am, her final summer water bill hit $500 for ONE MONTH. Needless to say, she’s significantly cut the water back now the events have occurred.
My own water has increased twice in two years and they’re asking for even more (on top of their ONE BILLION DOLLARS IN CASH RESERVES!), and I thought my miserly, jealously guarded $50 a month was outrageous! I am, and have been, replacing under performing roses and those which I have simply determined I’ve “grown past” and no longer require to please me. They’re being replaced by with own seedlings and much more water-wise plant types. It will take much more money and effort to transform this hill into better water holding capability than I have, or am willing to generate, so the time has come to plant things which will LOVE the way it is, and stop trying to “raise penguins in the desert”.
I realize that comparing California with Connecticut as far as agriculture goes is an oranges vs. apple situation, no pun intended. However, I am curious what the water rates are in your neighborhood, Kim. We pay $7.30 / 1,000 gallons plus a fee of about $10 per month for a residential 5/8" meter.
As a conservation measure for folks with sandy lawns in similar zones to mine, USDA 5b, I highly recommend considering the Johnathan Green brand mixture of tall fescue which is marketed as Black Beauty. Stay away from the ‘Ultra’ mix which contains some bluegrass along with the fescue.
The DWP bills in HCF (hundred cubic feet, which equals about 748 gallons). High temp, area, high fire danger area Tier 1 (cheapest) allotment is 90 HCF. I used 28 HCF last year, only 27 HCF this year for two months (hotter, drier year, too!). It is “Residential Water” rate.
One HCF, Tier 1 is $3.629. My average daily cost of water for the two hottest months was $1.66. The cost for one gallon of water was $.004. During shortage years, Tier 1 is reduced by 15%. There is no billed cost for a meter. Just the cost of water for two months; trash pick up for two months; cost of electricity for two months and “mandatory charities”.
Remember, there is no lawn, zero turf. There are few inground sprinklers and I don’t use them. I hand water what requires water, when I see or believe it needs it.
You guys are generous. I’d much rather put TNT sticks on the ground than turf 
The amount of hedges of Iceberg in California is ridiculous. I dont understand why bright white is so vogue down there? It seems to be the “color” of choice for wealthy areas there, too. I am assuming because white symbolizes “clean” or something.
As to the OP: I use too many seed parents to list, and the ones that I use repeatedly are not a challenge.
White ages better than colors do, including the stained Iceberg mutations. White is also more “elegant” and easier on the jaded eyes in the “high rent district”. Alaska Azalea and Iceberg are the “weeds of choice”. Both are used by the bazillians and “go with everything”. It’s like using grays and other neutral “earth tones” in interior decorating. It’s bland enough to be acceptable to nearly everyone, so it’s a no-brainer.
Water is cheap here, three months=53.14
Sewer =40.70
Stormwater Off-site =44.43
Stormwater On-site =23.93
Portland Habor Superfund = 1.81
Base Cnarge =29.12
Total =193.13
Go figure, Neil
That’s very cheap, Neil - does your water meter clogged up and doesn’t register properly? When our house was first built 12 years ago, our first year water was really cheap, $5 per month. We were elated, until the second year, the water company notified us that our water meter was clogged up with debris, so it moved slowly. They put in a new one, and the water bill was $300 per month just to keep my newly planted 26 trees alive during 2004 drought.
We have well water here: for the hottest summer month of June to August, or for 2 months: it’s $83 water, and $75 sewage, for a total of $158 for 2 months, or $79 per month - that’s higher than Kim’s $50 per month. I’m so happy to get rid of my big Austins.
I don’t pay sewer fees as I’m one of three or four still grandfathered in on septic. You have to police that, though as they tend to ‘forget’ and add it to your bill. “Sanitation” is $85 for two months.
Everyone here had one year to hook up to the new sewer lines and fill in the septic tanks. No houses sold without having a hook up and paid paid for. A lot of $$$.
Watch out for Agenda 21.
Neil