I need more modern repeat bloomers to include in my breeding activities (and to enjoy), and I’m interested in working with some of the deep red hybrid teas. I’ve seen mentioned here that Mr. Lincoln performs poorly as a parent plant. Does anyone know how well Myrandi, Oklahoma, or Chrysler Imperial perform? If so, does the plant perform better as a pollen parent or a seed parent?
John, I would think exploring how newer, fragrant, darker red HTs and floribundas compare as far as disease resistance to these older varieties might provide you with potentially healthier results. Take a look at some like:
Firefighter
Lasting Love
There are surely others with the color, form and scent you seek but which should have significantly greater health on greatly improved plants. I’d push the information further for you, but HMF is over loaded at the moment and has been for the past ten minutes.
Also Bailey’s ‘Kashmir.’ Haven’t used it to breed from (yet) but it is a fantastic rose. Very floriferous and incredibly healthy. My husband says it is very fragrant but I get just a slight scent. We’ve also found it to be a long lasting cut flower.
‘Crimson Glory’ can put out some healthy offspring–‘Cuthbert Grant’ and ‘Autumn Bouquet’ for instance.
Betsy van der Hoek
Minnesota zone 4
Hehe, I guess my mind is stuck in the 90’s when I was doing a lot of hybridizing. I’m gonna check out the suggestions posted above.
Of the ones mentioned above, I grow Mirandy, Oklahoma, Lasting Love, Kashmir, Crimson Glory and Cuthbert Grant. Mirandy, Oklahoma, Lasting Love and Crimson Glory all produce large hips with many good sized seeds. Germination rates are pretty good. I can’t say anything about the characteristics of their offspring yet because I just got started, but it appears they do well when paired with disease resistant parents. Based upon the OP seeds I grew out, the fragrance passes on in some of them but, in the more fragrant seedlings, I got more disease issues (as predicted). As Kim mentioned, I do recommend using Lasting Love. It has a lot better disease resistance than the others and the foliage, even in summer, has a burgundy coloring to it. It is a strong grower too.
Cuthbert Grant was new to me last year so I only used it as pollen donor this year and I can say that it seems to have successfully pollinated other modern roses. Kashmir is new to me this year so I did not use it at all. No OP hips are on either so I think they might need to be used as pollen parent. Excellent disease resistance for both Kashmir and Cuthbert Grant. I am hoping Kashmir has good enough winter hardiness for me.
I have experimented this year by trying to recreate Brownell’s Pink Princess X Crimson Glory using Crimson Glory as well as all those listed above (exception being Kashmir). Pink Princess is a really good HT here but needs to be modernized. The Pink Princess X Crimson Glory varieties I grow do very well (Curly Pink and Country Doctor are my two favorites) so I want to see what else came from this cross and see what the other, more modern, red HTs can add into this - especially Lasting Love. I have many hips out of these crosses that I will be harvesting this week so hopefully that equates to many seeds too. I also think I got a single Pink Princess X Knock Out hip which might give me something unique to work with too.
I have grown Mirandy but I much prefer Francis Dubreuil which is an old tea rose. Francis is a good grower and is good as both pollen and seed parent and the color is luscious.
Andre,
I am intrigued…what do you mean about ‘Pink Princess’ being ‘modernized’?
Betsy van der Hoek
Minnesota zone 4
You can learn more about what to expect from Francis by looking up Barcelona. What is, and has been, commercially available in the US for many decades are the same rose and both are identical to what has been here since prior to WWII as Barcelona. It is the parallel story to Irene Watts, both confusions based upon Peter Beales’ identifications, and both imported into the US by Mike Lowe, moved through Bob Edberg, The Huntington and finally discovered to be the identical roses to what has grown here for decades.
Mister Lincoln pollen gave the following number of viable embryos from one hip each of:
Dragons Blood 4
Mrs. Jubrey 8
Perfume Delight 4
Rosa roxburghii 3
Sweet Chariot 3
One hip each of Mister Lincoln gave these number of viable embryos when pollinated by:
Crested Jewel 1
Easleas Golden Rambler 5
Rosa moyesii 24
Sweet Chariot 8
One hip each of Chrysler Imperial gave these number of viable embryos when pollinated by:
09R405 3
Joycie 6
Roses Are Red 10
Scarlet Moss 13
I don’t use Chrysler Imperial as a pollen parent because mine is crippled by virus. I haven’t grown Mirandy in decades but I blew the dust off some old records and didn’t see any seeds from it. This was probably due more to it being too tender in zone 5b than than to infertility.
My old records show that Oklahoma is very fertile both ways but, again, it suffers in the winter here so I stopped replacing it when I could no longer get affordable, clean copies.
You might consider Scarlet Moss as an alternative to the classic HT’s as a source for remontant strong red genes especially as you seem to be interested in working with species. If you are looking for yellow genes for species crosses then Golden Angel and Golden Horizon are probably good choices too.
Betsy,
It is really difficult for me to describe what I mean when I say “modernization” but I will give it a shot. It is all about the look or the feel - the pure esthetics of the plant. I think that if I were to look for something to improve on Pink Princess I would try to improve its flower form and its cane size (or girth). These are what I think needs to be modernized.
When I think of a modern rose of any class, the bloom form, even when not considered exhibition form, still has some degree of order to it. That is to say that the petals seem to be placed in a way where you can see a pattern. A lot of the earlier Hybrid Teas seem to take on the more “old fashioned” blousy look. To me, Pink Princess looks like my 3 year old daughter was given 50 pink petals of various sizes and told to glue them on to the receptacle. Looking at its background you can kind of see where she gets this as General Jacqueminot 'Général Jacqueminot ' Rose Photo Dr. van Fleet 'Dr. W. Van Fleet' Rose Photo and Break o’ Day 'Break o' Day ' Rose Photo all can look like this when fully open. Personally, I still like the blooms as they are quite charming, but when I compare them to the next generation like Curly Pink 'Curly Pink' Rose Photo, Country Doctor 'Country Doctor' Rose Photo, and Queen o’ the Lakes 'Queen of the Lakes' Rose Photo, you can see how much improvement can be made, especially when grown side by side (Break o’ Day is also nearby and you can see the generational difference there too). It is amazing how much Pink Princess was improved in one generation using another dated parent with better form (and a few other flaws of its own). I think using an even more modern parent (like Lasting Love) can bring even better form to the next generation, and, if using a parent with better disease resistance than Crimson Glory, we can have even better seedlings than the ones Brownell introduced. Ones with better form than Pink Princess and disease resistance that is just as good. FWIW Pink Princess has very good BS resistance here in Iowa as well as good winter hardiness and these are just two characteristics I want to carry forward.
Like all roses, the canes on Pink Princess are thicker at the bottom and taper towards the tip. The problem with Pink Princess is that it does not come up thick enough at its bottom to compensate for the taper. So the thickness of the cane is especially thin when you get to the bloom. A GOOD basal shoot on Pink Princess might be about half to maybe 2/3 the thickness of an average modern rose’s basal shoot. At the tip of the cane it will be about 1/4 to a half the size of a number 2 pencil. They look like short whips. This is definitely a wichurana characteristic as it looks as if someone took a hybrid wichurana (Dr. van Fleet or Glenn Dale showing through here) and miniaturized it. Fortunately for the blooms, they are light enough so that they don’t nod too much - they do not have the droopy necks that other period HTs suffered from. Unfortunately, the thorns are quite large and very plentiful all the way up to the bloom.
I hope that kind of gets across what I mean when I say Pink Princess needs some modernization. It is one of my favorite roses I grow. I believe that it has a lot to offer hybridizers as it has good disease resistance, good shrub shape, excellent branching, good hip set, relatively good winter hardiness (zone 5b here), good vigor on its own roots, excellent repeat, and many other features that I cannot think of right now. But, if you look at it, you can definitely see the features which date it. I have used more than just red HTs on it in my quest to move it forward and I plan to backtrack a bit with it too (species and old European verities) so I can see what it can do. It is just such an intriguing, almost forgotten variety and, in my opinion, one of the Brownell family’s best varieties - one that actually met most of their goals.
I’d try Queen of the Lake w/ Grande Amore 
Hi Andre,
Thanks for your clarification. It was very interesting. I know what you mean about the thorns! I guess I am so delighted to have any HT that does not need back-breaking winter protection interventions to keep it alive that I don’t see any faults with the Princess. I especially like the foliage–neat, not large and coarse. A less interesting way of saying PP needs modernization would be that it still has the potential to be a good parent, but you would have to look to the other parent for stouter canes and more orderly form, right?
Betsy van der Hoek
Minnesota zone 4
I guess the thing for me is that I’m wanting to go in the opposite direction, so to speak. Rather than trying to improve my lineages with “modern” characters, my breeding efforts are aimed primarily to achieve a shrub rose with old garden rose (OGR) qualities. I like the blousiness of the OGR’s. Admittedly, this is much like David Austin’s efforts, as well as a few other major breeding firms, but the key feature that I’m going for is disease resistance. I want this to be the distinguishing trait of my roses. To do this, I intend to use some of the Albas, Damasks, and Gallicas that demonstrate the best resistance to common diseases. When crossing with, say a hybid tea, I’ll be selecting for OGR bloom forms in the offspring. Another angle that I intend to take is to start from scratch, introducing the vigor and disease resistance of North American native species, particularly those that are tetraploid. I’ll probably die before I reach my ideal seedlings ; ) But, ya know, I really enjoy the process as well as the product.
I do agree with Andre on some points. I want to produce blooms that have an appealing pattern to them, even if they are somewhat blousy. I don’t mind a nodding bloom, but the stem does need to be able to hold the bloom aloft to some extent, not dragging the entire cane to the ground.
When I cut a few blooms and surprise my wife with them at work, her coworkers always want to take a look and smell them. They like the hybrid teas, but when I bring in a blousy, fragrant OGR they express true amazement. “That’s a rose?!!” “It’s beautiful! I’ve never seen a rose like that!” “Why don’t they have ones like that at the flower shop?” So, that’s the niche I’m trying to fill, disease-free, OGR-looking shrubs with powerful fragrance. Oh, and I want to win the lottery too.
John, I like your thinking of what you are going to use. I am not one for ‘nodding’ roses, so the ‘teas’ I find them to like. Don’t get me wrong anyone, but I would like them to hold thier head up a bit.
I know this thread is about “Myrandy” HT’s, can some tell/show me what they are please.
As for David Austin side of roses, a friend told me that DA produced his best roses in the early 80s to the mid 90s.
Ive never found it difficult to breed stronger peduncles w/ roses.
Well, when I say the “Mirandy” HT’s I’m just refering to the line of roses for which Mirandy for which Mirandy is an ancestor. If I remember correctly, Oklahoma and Mister Lincoln are direct offspring, and Chrysler Imperial is in there somewhere. Certainly there are more but it’s been a while since I’ve been able to find my old Modern Roses 10.
Don, I have long thought about crossing Mister Lincoln/Mirandy/Oklahoma with Rosa moyessi, hoping that might lead to a more disease resistant line of red roses. I envisioned a large shrub with rather unusual flower characters. I’m really interested in how your Mister Lincoln X Rosa moyessi seedlings turned out.
John, if you pay for a premium membership in HMF, you can get all that information (about who’s purportedly the part of whom) at the touch of a finger or two. MR10 is a bit short on info in comparison. I like the ability to do a quick look-up of pedigrees.
John, of the twenty four embryos only five survived past infancy and I suspect none are true hybrids or maybe are only partial hybrids. I say this because they are all remontant, none have signs of the characteristic moyesii foliage but two proliferate heavily. One has fringed stipules which might be a sign of hybridity. I tossed all but two which are now out in a test bed waiting for winter to have its way with them.
This doesn’t mean the cross didn’t work but only that the surviving seedlings don’t have enough moyesii in them to do much with. I’d have to dig deep into paper notes to see what happened to the non-surviving embryos but iirc a lot of them were malformed which is also a sign of hybridity with wide crosses like this.
This seedling is from moyesii pollen on Happiness. I have no doubt at all about its hybridity and have repeated the cross in hopes of generating additional seedlings.
[attachment 1103 263-1.JPG]
The photo is from spring time. The plant has nearly outgrown the container and I’m mulling over what to do with it and with a few other confident moyesii hybrids in the pipeline as they are looking to be large cane shrubs similar to Eddie’s Jewel and Eddie’s Crimson. So far it has not flowered.
Here is a list of other crosses using moyesii pollen that have yielded embryos. Most seedlings were malformed and did not survive. Some are suspect because the mothers are fond of producing selflings (Golden Angel, R. virginiana)
Female Embryos
Incantation 23
Rosa virginiana 17
Rosa glutinosa (Idaho) 11
Hot Cocoa 10
Incantation 8
Salita 7
Rosa virginiana 6
Golden Angel 5
Happiness 5
Happiness 5
Sundowner 4
Incantation 2
Joycie 2
LCRNANOXDORHOR 2
Rosa virginiana 2
Happiness 1
Joycie 1
02-036-1 (Julie Overom) 1
(possibly) Aloha 1
Persian Sunset 1
Hot Cocoa 1
The one identifiable pattern in successful crosses with pollen from my moyesii cultivar seems to be tetraploid mothers. This makes sense given the high ploidy of moyesii, whether you believe it to be hexaploid or octoploid. Mine has not been measured.
Thanks for directing me to HMF, ldavis. I’ve been out of the rose hybridizing loop for a while, and in the meantime new resources have come up that I’m still learning about.