It’ll be fun to see the variation in those, Tom. Congrats!
I’d be very thrilled as well! 
That’s a very interesting mother plant.
(So… if simple Medellean genetics were to play out, you might have a 50/50 chance of a repeater being possible in about 1/4 of those plants?)
Thanks guys!
As far as odds of a repeater showing up, I haven’t really got a clue. I’m figuring that the odds have to be pretty low. After all, both mama and papa of “3/4 native” ARE once-bloomers.
But…
‘Fragrant Cloud’ and Rosa carolina both repeat - albeit probably from different genes - since they cancelled each others’ rebloom. So the mama of “3/4 native” should be carrying two different types of repeat genes. And figuring in the possibility of quadrivalent assortments… and crossovers and deletions… and the mysteries of whose pollen might have been flown in… who knows what’ll show up in these seedlings. I do know though that I’m gonna do my best to find out. :0)
Seedlings coming up thickly from 3/4 native OP
Looks like lots of purple tints like your virginiana seedlings, Simon.
Also noticed seeds coming up from the following:
F1 (glutinosa x palustris) OP (only 3 germinations so far)
glutinosa x fedtschenkoana
palustris x fedtschenkoana
bracteata hybrids OP [bracteata x (rugosa x palustris)]
davidii x fedtschenkoana
can hardly wait to see what some of these will look like [and smell like].
palustris x fedtschenkoana sounds interesting to me. Starting with an species x species cross seems like it might be a good first step before crossing with moderns.
My worry with trying species crosses is their early release of pollen. Do you take any precautions or use special procedures to prevent selfs, Tom?
Hi Joe,
Years ago I always tried to do carefully controlled crosses, emasculated several days before opening and keeping covered until after the stigmas have browned and shriveled. I’ve gotten a lot less controlling about it in recent years, but will still do controlled crosses when I especially want to be sure. Most of the time though, it’s very obvious when you actually get a hybrid when you’re working with species. For the three crosses with fedtschenkoana pollen above [glutinosa x fedtschenkoana, palustris x fedtschenkoana, and davidii x fedtschenkoana], I just emasculated the seed parents shortly before normal opening and didn’t cover at all. So, I’ll be hoping for a strong and distinctive influence of fedtschenkoana on the appearance of the seedlings to confirm that they really are hybrid. Please don’t let the reputation for early pollen release scare you away from trying species crosses. They’re too much fun! And actually, a little self pollen could even possibly be helpful in providing a “mentor effect” in getting difficult crosses to succeed.
In the case of those crosses listed above, I’ve already got an especially good feeling about the parentage of the davidii x seedlings because the hips I pollinated by fedtschenkoana were much fuller than normal open-pollinated ones. The palustris x, I’m betting is probably good too. The glutinosa is the one I’d be most cautious about because I’ve gotten lots of selfed Caninae (canina, eglanteria, glauca) before when I’ve been hoping for crosses. But even with these, I’ve gotten hybrids too, and so have lots of other people. So don’t be afraid of trying them.
Best wishes, Tom
I do the same thing Tom does in most cases. When you got distinct species or a species rose and a modern one you usually get a good idea which seedlings are crosses and which ones are not by looking at leaf morphology and plant morphology in the seedlings. That way you can weed out the ones that are self’s and not have to waste room on them. I am sure this method will miss seedlings occasionally and sometimes you may select a self to grow on but it works pretty well.
Cases where this method is not as effective.
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When both species have similar plant morphology
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When the one parent totally dominates the cross. Many of the dog roses will do this as seed parents.
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When both parents have similar backgrounds. Taking a rambling species and crossing it to say a polyanthus. Or a rugosa with a rugosa hybrid.
Occasionally what you will select will not be a cross but a self that deviates from the normal. I got two R. glauca x mixed modern rose pollen (mostly miniatures) that may be crosses or may be some a species selection. I have yet to decide which.
Species are well worth the effort and time. Without these crosses we can only refine what we already have. It is only through these crosses that we will find new traits to mix into the current gene pool.
Thanks for the responses, Tom and Adam. I’m excited to try some species crosses of my own.
My first go was last year putting virginiana pollen on a lot of different moderns. I think I’m getting a few germinations so far from those crosses. People say virginiana dominates in the first generation.
Last year I just got some small nitida, foliolosa, fedtschenkoana (seedlings from Kim), palustris and even a roxburghii. They are in pots and I just pulled them out of storage, but am not really expecting them to bloom this year. I have a few more species out in the field that will probably bloom: beggeriana, virginiana, carolina, acicularis, and maybe one or two more.
I think my crosses will pretty much be random for now. I’m not a species expert and I don’t really know what direction to go. As I make some crosses and see what happens I will learn more and maybe feel out a direction to consciously pursue.
For your plants of the rugosa crossed with Hazeldean what % of plants have this light yellow colouration was it relatively few? your experience can be of great help. I am crossing a rose called Connie’s Tough Laxa , with hazeldean. it igs an incredibly hardy white that reblooms somewhat. Only one seedling survived and I would like to know how many seeds I should struggle with embryo extraction to get 95%likelyhood of a yellow offspring next year. thanks and your flower looks better than Agnes and I think that it is getting close to Prairie Peace. Johannes
[attachment 1605 image.jpg]. I am confidant that this is a hybrid since the leaves are not like the female parent which are grey and thick.
Hi Tom!!
It would be wonderful if the R. palustris and R. carolina genotypes you used possess rose rosette resistance and your hybrids could be links to resistant modern roses.
Hi Johannes,
“For your plants of the rugosa crossed with Hazeldean what % of plants have this light yellow colouration was it relatively few? your experience can be of great help. I am crossing a rose called Connie’s Tough Laxa , with hazeldean. it igs an incredibly hardy white that reblooms somewhat. Only one seedling survived and I would like to know how many seeds I should struggle with embryo extraction to get 95%likelyhood of a yellow offspring next year. thanks and your flower looks better than Agnes and I think that it is getting close to Prairie Peace. Johannes”
Unfortunately, due mostly to neglect on my part, I only grew this one seedling to maturity. I have a feeling that there could have been some doubles and probably also some that expressed at least a little more yellow, but I won’t know without repeating the cross. I appreciate your kind words, but I’d have a hard time saying this one’s better than ‘Agnes’ - I really liked ‘Agnes’ when I had it. Although the overall plant habit is probably more delicate like a spinosissima than like a rugosa.
That’s a really cool seedling you’ve got. It’ll be fun to see what the blooms look like and if it repeats any.
Best of luck with it!
David Zlesak wrote:
“Hi Tom!! It would be wonderful if the R. palustris and R. carolina genotypes you used possess rose rosette resistance and your hybrids could be links to resistant modern roses.”
Hi David. I’m sure hoping that’s the case, because rose rosette is a BIG problem in this area. So far, I haven’t seen any signs of disease in any of my palustris or carolina derived seedlings but they could have just gotten lucky and time might prove them to be susceptible. RRD has definitely hit some of my other stuff, so this place is a good one to test them out for resistance LOL
Some that have NOT escaped RRD are:
“Jefferson” (found rose) X ‘Carefree Sunshine’
arvensis x soulieana (as well as soulieana itself)
rugosa x spinosissima
I think all three of these are suffering from RRD as I write this.
But in addition to the carolina and palustris derivatives, I’d add the virginiana derivatives as ones worth considering as possibly having resistance. I’ve yet to see RRD in any of those.
Thanks for the food for thought!
Tom