Under-used species with great potential...

Philip,

A cross of Rosa glauca and Rosa moyesii being feasible? Absolutely! I hadn’t thought of it but thanks very much for mentioning it. I’ll do it, using ‘Geranium’. No matter how it’s done, a Rosa glauca hybrid with red or deep pink flowers would be stunning. Maybe using Rosa moyesii is the answer.

I used a cross of Glauca X Pendulina I got as seedlings from Joan Monteith this Spring. I used the pollen got seed set. I’ll report whether I get germination.

Jadae, you’re comparing apples and oranges, no? I’ve not used glauca, and have no sense for how reliably it passes on foliage color, but imagine that (along with cold-hardiness) to be its main strengths. But is it your understanding that r. rubus is recurrent?? Jukka, do let us know what you learn.

Just for hypothetical kicks, Paul, what cold-hardy recurrent bloomer would you think might be a candidate for future development of the hypothetical glauca x moyesii offspring?

And playing the armchair hybridizer, I’m wondering if Fedtshenkoana might also be an interesting species to consider throwing into that brew (not for recurrence, but for other esthetic and hardiness reasons…)

So what glaucous bronze or silver cool-colored foliage and recurrent blooming cultivar might one consider crossing with for the second or third generation of any r. fedt., R. moy., or R. glauca hybrids, I wonder…

Im not comparing apples to oranges. Im being preferential. I dont see any potential to my subjective perception.

I dont think R. rubus is repeating but I dont think it would take many crosses to get there with it.

Philip,

For further development of a Rosa glauca x R. moyesii hybrid into a cold hardy repeat bloomer, I think there are a couple of possibilities. The first is using the Skinner Nursery repeat bloooming Rosa glauca hybrid that has been grown in the nursery for several decades but is still unnamed. I think it’s possibile it is a ‘Carmenetta’ seedling.

Secondly, I would use the Rugosa ‘Schneezwerg’. In F2 progeny of ‘Schneezwerg’, it is possible to get seedlings with grey green foliage foliage. The grey green foliage possibily results from Rosa beggeriana that is likely one of the parents of ‘Schneezwerg’ (a cold hardy species is definitely one of the parents of ‘Schneezwerg’, because this cultivar is very hardy and it sets hips early).

You’ve given me the idea of combining Rosa glauca with grey green foliage species like Rosa beggeriana and Rosa fedtschenkoana. So thanks for that. I don’t see any reason why cultivars can’t be developed that have interesting foliage shades of grey green and reddish green colour. Indeed, they would be grown for their foliage colour and the flower quality would be secondary. In time, flower quality could be developed to equal the importance of the foliage colour.

Hey Paul,

Although it’s possible that it may give you even more grey, you wouldn’t necessarily need to use ‘Schneezwerg’. I just used a run-of-the-mill rugosa to get these F1 rugosa X glauca seedlings, which have “Colorado-blue-spruce”-colored foliage.

And I think that’d be really cool to try beggeriana and fedtschenkoana with glauca. I’d do it myself if I had those species.

I’ll include the URL (for the F1 rugosa X glauca) in addition to trying the direct image link, since I always seem to have so much trouble with this part. By the way, shown are the two distinct color variations of the flowers of the F1. And last year I germinated backcross (using rugosa pollen) seedlings, some of which were still fairly grey-foliaged. I’m hoping to recover the repeat-bloom of the rugosa in these.

Tom

Link: www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/SpeciesHybridTable/images/rugosaXglauca.jpg

Koolpages does not allow you to link directly to images on their site from other sites. Here is a link to Tom’s Rosa rugosa x glauca page that should work:

Link: www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/SpeciesHybridTable/rugosaXglauca.html

Wow Tom. Your rugosa/glauca hybrids look like a great line. How much fertility do they have? The idea of backcrossing to rugosa (especially ones with double flowers) sounds great. I would be really interested in seeing progeny of intermated F1’s. Hopefully ~1/4 of the offspring would be repeat blooming and hopefully among them you would get a wide distribution of glauca/rugosa characteristics. It would be fantastic to get a repeat-flowering seedling that combines the best of both species and especially leans mostly towards glauca for foliage color. R. glauca seems to be self-fertile and R. rugosa as a species in general has a strong self incompatibility system. Do you have op seeds off of your F1’s? It would be great to see what they produce. Maybe some would be selfs. Have you raised op seedlings of these F1’s before?

Sincerely,

David

Yes, Tom. The fuschia blooms show the blue to nice effect. Did you use a pink species rugosa?

Paul, I was actually rather surprised that Pierre Rutten’s thread on plant architecture didn’t develop more and include more discussions on foliar attributes, but while I haven’t had any opportunity to pursue such, I think it a potenitially worthwhile route. I remember Kim Rupert quoting, I believe it was Ralph Moore (?), who claimed it was a lot easier to hang a pretty flower on progeny of good plants than to develop a good plant beneath a pretty flower.

That said, a lot of modern roses that come out leave me scratching my head wondering where they inherited various foliar attributes, given their pedigrees…

So changing the subject a bit, are there species that tend to more reliably yield fully double cabbagey offspring?

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Wichurana seems to.

About: “inherited attributes” one should remember that just a small fraction of roses nuclear DNA is expressed.

I do not know how much for but I did read somwhere that it is no more than 20% of nuclear DNA is working for us (diploid) humans. Obviously this amount is lessened for tetraploids.

In an offspring different nuclear environment, even if not expressed in parents, mute DNA may surface anew. And its expression is eventually different particularly from that in the original species.

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Philip,

I think the next major step in rose breeding will be developing shrubs with beautiful and different shades of green foliage than we are used to seeing. Thus, the shrub will always be attractive in the landscape even when it is not blooming or has very little bloom. Shrubs with grey-green foliage will be the most valuable, since a near neutral colour makes them easier to blend in a landscape with a variety of plants. But shrubs with a reddish-green colour are also valuable in a landscape (if not over done),since they immediately attract attention. Fortunately, some of the species with grey-green foliage are very tough and disease resistant, so it should be possible to develop quite carefree shrubs with interesting shades of green foliage.

Species that have a tendency to develop progeny with double flowers? I think there are a couple of possibilities. First, is to use species with semi-double or doubleflowers. This is rare but Rosa arkansana is one. Example, the ‘John Allen’, ‘J.W. Fargo’ and ‘Woodrow’ cultivars. The Rosa woodsii ‘Athabasca’ has semi-double flowers. Secondly, making wide crosses between species that, because of genetic incompatibilities, could produce hybrids with semi-double or double flowers. Of course, this route is a long term project and there is no guarantee of any results.

Thanks David and Philip_LA (and Thanks Jim for fixin’ my goof, you’d think I’d be able to remember by now).

I did use a “generic” single pink rugosa. The F1 does set open-pollinated hips, but many of the seeds are hollow or underdeveloped. I once grew a small bunch of these seedlings and was disappointed with their vigor. That was one of the main reasons, I did a backcross to rugosa this time instead of intercrossing the F1. And I figured that since the F1 expressed a decent amount of foliage color (from glauca) that some of those foliage color genes must be dominant anyway. The six or so, backcross offspring, have shown varying degrees of “glaucous-ness” (one was very blue as a 1/4 inch seedling), but they didn’t seem to hold that color all throughout the season. Once I get repeat bloomers of this parentage, I plan on intercrossing them to try to intensify the foliage color.

As for “species that tend to more reliably yield fully double cabbagey offspring”… here’s a small piece of information along those lines… I once had a double-flowered multiflora that I had found among the other multifloras growing locally. In addition to having 20-30 petals, the stylar column was somewhat shorter than normal, and the bloom peaked almost a week later than the other multifloras. Otherwise it resembled the other multifloras, in all ways. So, it’s still a mystery to me, whether this was merely a mutant or if it was the product of introgression from a modern/cultivated rose.

Before I lost that rose to rose rosette disease, I got an offspring using pollen of the single pink rugosa. When conditions are perfect, the blooms of this F1 (double multiflora X rugosa) are “fully double and cabbagey”, with many more than the 20-30 petals of its seed parent. So maybe rugosa has added something that increases the double-ness. Unfortunately it also gives those petals, all of the substance of tissue paper.

I’ll include a link below so you can see how double it is.

When it looks like this I just love it - it even smells great too! But I have to admit that most of the time when it’s in bloom, I have to try and look past the blooms (if the little balls of brown even qualify as blooms) and focus on the always-great-looking foliage.



Link: www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/multifloraXrugosa.html

That’s beautiful Tom.

I’m sorry Pierre, tears are streaming down my face laughing, to learn of people being diploids. That inevitable question did cross my mind, and other bizarre questions related to that, but those I’ll save for another amusing session :slight_smile: We’ve always been told that children with Down’s Syndrome have an extra chromasome in their genetic make-up. And recently, those with Tourette’s Syndrome have some quirky protein thing happening in their DNA.

I’ve waited 30 years for that explanation, lol!

David, why is it that certain species are self-fertile, and others self-incompatible?

Paul O, are you not concerned about mildew crossing with r. glauca? It can mildew here in south central Ontario.

Thanks Robert. Actually, even with its faults, that’s one of my favorites [of my own seedlings – the majority of which are species crosses].

It would probably open fine in a warmer drier climate.

Tom, that really is an wonderful plant. Beautiful foliage, wonderful cabbagey blooms and … clusters?

Can an entire cluster even open with blossoms that large and clusters that tight?

I do hope you find some fertility in that baby. Too much interesting stuff going on not to use!

I’ve got seeds from Bella Nitida x R. glauca and Corylus x R. xanthina that I’ll put up in the fridge this winter. I wish I had crossed R. glauca and R. xanthina both ways. I like the thought of yellow to peach colored blooms with glaucous-purple stems and foliage.

Rob,

Not to discourage you from trying, because I only had one seedling from this cross… but my glauca X xanthina was a weak seedling. It did have the nice foliage color of glauca. It just never really grew much and it never bloomed. I tried planting it in a different location but it died.

I agree that yellow to peach colored blooms on a glauca type plant would be really cool. I’m hoping that I’ll get some germinations from the few seeds I got this season from ‘Louis Riel’ X ‘Hazeldean’.

The link below has a [poor] picture of the glauca X xanthina before it died.

Philip_LA,

Thanks, unfortunately I’ve yet to see a cluster of that multifora X rugosa open properly; only clusters of brown “balled” blooms, kinda like little round cigars ;0). Also, several of the flowerbuds will often yellow and drop before opening – thinning out the cluster. I agree that it still has a lot going for it, in the “breeding potential” department. I’ll have to get serious next season about working on that.

Link: www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/SpeciesHybridTable/glaucaXxanthina.html