I did the two persica crossings today - and doing this I further studied my two types of Rosa persica, which are now documented in a first statement on helpmefind.
Comparing the flowers of two types of Rosa persica:
Type 1, the left one, is from Taschkent, type 2, the right one, from Persia.
Type 1 has a bigger stigma, purple or burgundy stamina (!) and more and straight prickles on the stems.
Type 2 has a smaller stigma, yellow stamina and less prickles, that are thicker and “crooked” on the stems.
The origin of the two types should be a few thousand km apart!
(I think this is the first comparing that has been ever done on different types of persica.)
“Filaments and anthers are yellow, and the stigmas are either pale, or slightly purplish; a colour variation I have not accounted for. The colouring of these organs has an important influence on the beauty of the hybrids. I have seen about a dozen flowers with no pistils, only a hole in the middle.”
Filaments and anthers of my Taschkent plants (Type 1) are purplish or burgundy (I will make a photo-documentation for helpmefind). And even the carpels of that Type 1 contain that purplish colour - that one of the persian Type 2 are much lighter!
What could be important: the stigma seems to be larger in the Type 1 plants - so perhaps Hybrids from that plants will have larger stigmata, too!
That should be a theme for the botanists, and I have connection to one - he is already checking the situation.
Maybe you are right, I think of the two types also as variations of the species, and it should be a good idea, to cross them.
On thing about my situation:
So farI got 6 flowers on persica plants this season in 2008.
One on the Taschkent Type I and 5 on the Persian Type II in the “Harkness Style”.
The Type I was pollinated with one Pollen partner, the Type II with another on 4 flowers and the same as Type I on one flower (that one I pollinated today).
I am sure that the chances are good to get descendants, but , waht is really interesting for the future, is the different behaviour of the two Types in further breeding lines!
Greetings,
Arno
By the way, I had 12,5 tonnes of clay in delivery for my “remote garden” and so I am exhausted, - not each gramm is now in its rightplace, but the big thing has been but there, in the last 24 hours.
So please, don’t think, I don’t want to write, i am a little bit tired … .
Earlier in this thread ‘Edward Hyams’ is mentioned as being available from David Austin Roses. I’ve done some research, and it appears that ‘Edward Hyams’ is still available. Hills House Nursery in Devon England has obtained one, and has planted it on their property (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.rec.gardening/2007-11/msg00147.html). They obtained it from Austin Roses. Hills House Nursery has had it only a short time, and their website doesn’t list it as being available. Maybe Austin Roses will sell the rose to others?
Either the foto with the “spot” (stigma) - or the description that speaks of a lacking of a stigma:
“The flowers are yellow, without red blotches at the base of the petals. It is recorded from the Kopet dagh in Turkmenia. It is strange that the petals have no red spot, as the spot is generally a dominant character in hybrids of Rosa persica.”
I was reading a paper on molecular taxonomy of rosa when I came across a quote which piqued my interest:
“R. persica is able to hybridize with other species from the genus Rosa. This has been reported for naturally occurring plants by de la Roche (1978) and Bean (1980), as well as for ornamental breeding (Harkness, 2003).”
The ‘ornamental’ hybrids Harkness would have mentioned are obviously his own and also R. persica hardii which Cocker worked with in vain and was anyway an intentional cross by Julien-Alexandre Hardy.
It is the naturally occuring hybrids that are news to me, though maybe not to others here? I would love to be enlightened about these. In case you wish to explore this further the relevant citations are:
Bean WJ. 1980. Trees and shrubs hardy in the British Isles.
Thank you for this excerpt, I haven’t got teh time to go deep into the sources, but I think its not only a seedling variation, as there are more than 1 trait differing i n the two types.
I will make fotos.
And: Of course I think, they are crossable, as easy as predictable if they where from 1 species. …
I did a few crosses on my ‘Tigris’ plant, but it looks like most of them are failing. I had decided to try putting pollen of one of my repeat blooming hulthemias on it in a back cross.
You will have to expect that-- I made the same Tigris X Mutibilis cross this year, and all of them aborted again. And on top of that… including: Renae, Champney’s Pink Cluters, R. abysinnica, the true Cecil Brunner, Perle d or, and The Fairy.
Actually, ‘Tigris’ does produce seeds reasonably well if you do not emasculate the blooms. I used it as a seed parent in 2002 and about half of the crosses “took”.
This is the first time that I have used it since then and was curious if the blotch could be further intensified by crossing some of the newer repeat blooming hulthemias on to it. I looked carefully at the plant yesterday and noted that at least two hips are nicely swelling, though the rest look like goners!
Here is a photo of K201 blooming about 2 weeks ago that I had said earlier that I would post. The photo is outside with a fair amount of warmer weather before the photo was taken, so it looks like the blotch is going to have a reasonable amount of heat stability.
I don’t emasculate the blooms, and I pollinate it several times (once per day for 3 days).
I think a huge problem has to be the rain. Everytime roses bloom-- it rains the next second. I usually protect the blooms with a trashbag canopy, and it does help to some extent.
And then the whole month after that is very strong winds.
I am just glad that I have pollen from Persian Sunset right now, now the weather is calm and consistantly warm. I will attempt to do the same cross on Queen Elizabeth. I see several buds ready to be emasculated. In two days, they ought to get just ready enough for the cross.
And that plant is sooooo beautiful. I especially love the creamy color between the end petal and the halo/throat.
It reminds me of morning glories now-- What is the parentage of that one?
Thanks for the comments on this one. It is extremely floriferous and quite clean with respect to PM. It does get a bit of foliage drop mid-season that I think it inherited from ‘Midnight Blue’.
Last year I used it as a potential parent even as a new seedling. Unfortunately, all hips aborted when it was used as a pollen parent (it produces scant pollen) and none of the few seeds that I got using it as a seed parent germinated. This year it looks more promising as a parent - many hips are swelling nicely where it was used both ways.
It is from a cross of J93-3 (has ‘Tiggle’ in it) X I89-2 (has ‘Persian Sunset’ in it).
J93-3 = {[(‘Orangeade’ X ‘Abraham Darby’) X ‘Midnight Blue’] X (‘Midnight Blue’ X ‘Baby Love’)} X
I89-2 = [(‘Orangeade’ X ‘Abraham Darby’) X ‘Midnight Blue’] X ‘Persian Sunset’
