… and definitely liked favoured by a Greek and mutual … darn apple scent though
… unless regent apparent Duchy of Cornwall apple grove holdings result equivalent of Taunton sweet or dry apple cider
QE-1 equals Virginia and West Virginia namesake …. Getting a few hits now
Yes, you got it, Riku! Queen Elizabeth is the rose. (Tall, healthy, not really admired by show people, but beloved all over the world, with [to me] an apple scent to the flowers. This rose was Charlotte Armstrong’s daughter, and, many generations down, gave us the, ugh, Knockout series.
The “namesake” clues were Elizabeth I, the “virgin queen”, for whom the crown colony, later State, Virginia was named.
The other Elizabeth is of course Elizabeth II, now with some health challenges. Her late husband, originally Phillipos, was born in Corfu.
The John’s antecedent clue was Elizabeth, John the Baptist’s mother, and, I think, Jesus’ auntie, though I’m not really sure.
Now I’m going to have a nice hot toddy and get to sleep.
Brian.
Txs big and interesting challenge, but phil’s focus on Charlotte cracked it by letting the tie-ins being made … whew least this spring visit over the pond will be done with appropriate “airs” as will the revisit to the Duchy.
Yeah… umm… No. I wasn’t even close. The state namesake made me think of Oklahoma, misinterpreting what was named after whom, and Charlotte A is in its lineage, and I was wondering if the three… uh… roses (well… sisters?) might be the siblings OK, M.L. and Papa Meilland (gender issues notwithstanding – I think of roses as feminine, personally.) Of course, the only “John” to follow Lincoln was many generations later, and there was no eglantine in the lineage…
But I would have gotten Ha-ha… Honest. 
Clue John, threw me, couldn’t link it in my mind because it’s considered a cursed name in British royalty and avoided. Due to King John the bad not living up to intent of Magna Carta and last Prince John died young in 1919 (epilepsy). And dont think John the Baptist faired well either … blushed over clue …
Just occurred to me, through googling, King John’s wives were l believed both named Isabellas, or Spanish variant l read of Elisabeth, … man that would of been a brain thumper for me … would not of gotten clue … but a royal genuine cricket clue
… miracles do happen … and larry right … “purloined propagule” original fictional? paper by a ???fictional Canadian??? that caught my eye and showed up again … can’t believe we would be so suspicious …
… THE GREAT OUTLAW
By Walter LeMire
The Canadian Rose Grower
This is a story of a rose from yesterday that wore a mask of many names, return back to the times when ONLY roses registered with the American Rose Society were accepted in their competitions. The Great Outlaw was germinated more than forty years ago. Up to that time the most perfect stage of beauty was only seen either in manuals or for only a fleeting moment in real roses. This seedling held its high center in perfect symmetrical form long enough that an artists’ perception could be painted in three dimensional colour…still, it held…
The story of The Great Outlaw is true. Only my fond memories of the times and people from yesterday could or may change a few dates. For the most part, I’ll try and keep them straight. To tell the true story it’s necessary to include the times and the many people involved. Allow me to start with the man that helped make the legend possible Henry Webb came to Michigan from the Tennessee-Kentucky area, loved Beagle dogs so much that at times four or five met you at the gate. Henry worked at one of the leading rose nurseries, long before it was popular. H.W. grafted miniatures, producing plants of “STARINA” 30 inches high and at least half that wide. One thing H.W. could do was grow beautiful roses. His deep passion was exhibiting, even at work, he would dress a queen quality rose, it then was put on display in a clear refrigerated case in the middle of the room. Here, every person coming into the nursery would view the roses of the day. I refer to the man as H.W., my children referred to his visits by reporting “the man without shoe laces was here”. Henry was tall, raw-boned man, but, as I stated earlier, those big hands and fingers could graft with great precision. Another thing Henry could do was
talk roses.
On almost any weekend in the rose growing season H.W.’s yard would be populated by rosarians from hundreds of miles away. To put it another way, he was the motor that kept dreams alive in the Great Lakes district.
The year Penn-Jersey hosted the American Rose Society National Convention, Henry attended. Conard Pyle Nurseries was on the tour. When the group came to the new seedlings, Henry saw this great rose. I was not there, but the story goes, “a black car with a person using long glasses followed every step and movement that Henry made.” That night it rained very hard but Henry went back to the field without benefit of a flashlight and captured a stick of budwood.
The Great Outlaw was on its way to Michigan. Because the rose had so many petals, exhibitors saw a thing of beauty. However, the rose refused to drop its spent petals the general public saw a rose that ended up looking something less than beautiful. Conard Pyle elected not to introduce this rose.
Because of this decision, The Great Outlaw was born and an extraordinary amount of rose history would unfold.
The Great Outlaw appeared under name names; “PAPA MIELLAND”, “BIG BEN” and “BIG RED” just to name a few, and as each new rose became available, the name had to change. In the late ‘60’s two entrepreneurs from Ohio came to Michigan and crossed over to Canada gathering sticks of budwood as they went. In just a few years the original eyes had become many plants. Now, a new life was about to begin, the mask was coming off…or so we thought.
In 1971, Kern Rose Nursery hit the ground running with its registration of a dark red called “UNCLE JOE” (Mirandy x Charles Mallerin) x unnamed seedling. Shortly after, Melvin Wyants’ 1972 registration of a medium red rose called “TORO” (Karl Herist seedling x Big Red) very fragrant. Well, it’s a good thing no one tried to make an identification based on the supposed fragrance or “TORO” would still be looking for its first ribbon.
For many years the debate of perceived differences of the roses rang loud in some camps, while just as loudly other camps swore there were none. In 1974, The Great Outlaw was shown, not only as “TORO” and “UNCLE JOE”, but also as “BIG BEN”.
Yes, it made and English Box fit for any world competition, and it won. Thinking back to yesterday and remembering many conversations with rosarians from both camps, it’s a wonder my tongue is not shredded from all the times I had to bite it.
Thank you for the fond memories. Rose by Walter LeMire provided me quite a few really good, really fun and interesting roses in the years he exported from Canada to the US.
Decided l better look the Canadian chap name up …
“ Walter Lemire was a proud and world renowned rosarian accomplishing sales throughout the world.
His greatest accomplishment in his lifetime was in 1974 where he took every prize at the World Federation Rose Growers in Chicago.”
…. From 2012 in passing memory notice
He also offered and sold some of the most wonderful and desirable roses imaginable in those years.
What are “widgers and dippers” … try to avoid googling…
Oh and in platinum anniversary tradition celebrating the event, HA-HA, and QE II and showing of King Louis ??? gifted riding carriage that Queen Vic used for her estates garden grounds tours l aquired some Opinel gardening hardware … any excuse will do even if a tenuous connection to France will do for rose gardening.
No orange Pemberton Z located so far.
I’ll take a stab at it based on the photo - are they tools for weeding?
You have the stainless steel version Opinels, looks like a full set. I’ve been grafting fruit trees lately and was thinking about getting the No. 8 duckbill in carbon steel. Is yours single bevel?
Hi Don,
The 08 Opinel pruning and grafting knife is RH, single bevel, single blade hook version (no multi-blade or duck bill in store’s inventory). However I am left handed, but tend to cut away from me. Heel out-toes in, awkward for large hands but not a problem for mine. Economical price here~20$ CDN. Shoot just recalled Larry was suppose to be awarded a Opinel No 8? for the "Out Law"ID … may have to beg forgiveness for no show …
My small (miniature) version of a dibber and widger set could be used for removing weeds (with widger) in seedling beds. I see my use of it for thinning and transplanting seedlings (very young) to larger pots. Use dual ended miniature forked-trowel ends (versus alternative old fashion wooden coffee stirrer or plastic takeaway fork glued together) to get under seedling and ease out, and dibber (versus pencil) to create and prep hole.
… forgot after another trip to the “camera” Company", yes an optical sales entrepreneur, a NO 12 (good carving and pointing tool added for top end set completion), NO 10 and small NO 7 chestnut and garlic tool also added. There “gardening No 7” will be useful might even work for shucking oysters. Drew the line at Opinel 's kitchen carving options - too massive - passed.
Though saw an interesting set of labelled as Asian (Japanese?) ware never seen that have a Hindu hook (edge balancing S geometry) but one half of curves has a sharp … could not think of a gardening use except stripping canes.
At the risk of creating a travellers vlog, and tangential, in the trivia post, came upon a die hard gardener’s large nursery for subtropical and temperate plants that are grown in the west country - created by Carhay’s estate owner who knows how to pay for the upkeep of his castle roof built in the 19th century. Told by employees they won prizes a few times at Chelsea. The place gave a warm all over feeling of comfort as in “heritage” nursery setting, complete period surrounding feel c/w moss, enclosing brick walls arches and old gates - no modern brand xerox - cafe design. 5 or 6 rows of at least 100 foot large “quonset” shaded tunnels, walls nearly all have shaded and stocked wall holding and growing areas. Specialize in magnolias, camellias, rhododendrons, azaleas that also grow on estate (spring tours only) and touring the “Burncose” nursery saw perennial and annuals plants I have not got a clue about … e.g. guava, fern trees etc… No modern in patent roses carried, but gifted SIL a MIP, Cornelia and Dickinson? yellow “Freedom”. Also had Agnes but decided against for SIL. Proviso to send photos of what MIP and Cornelia should look like in right place. Heading back to get the feel. Seem to do a lot their own propagation and hybridizing of the exotics to me.
I stand corrected by myself - I think.
If you mean bevelled as in cutting edge creation, on closer look, yes it is, and looks close to how I edge my secateurs. Use a 35 to 40 deg edge on cutting side (sometimes grades to shallower at tip), and steel on backside given one stone pass to remove burr edge.
No 8 stamped side edge is easily visible as honed, but on flat backside it is has a very hard to note and looks to be a mild bevel - de burring ? and side is very “flat” compared to cutting stamped side (to my eyes anyways which have acrylic plastic lenses and therefore must be okay).
Opinel spec states bevelled both sides.
As to duck bill terminology, they use hook bill term, but I use duck bill for that the other gardening hand tool I have not seen … looks like a small straight sharpened edge tipped grafting tool ? Like a carving chisel.
I use single bevel myself. I have several grafting knives including some expensive ones. The one I use most and like most is a cheap no-name Chinese folder that I bought mail order from Gil Schieber who runs Skipley Farms. He sells them for $13 but will sharpen it to perfection for another $7, well worth the cost. If you graft fruit he also has quite the selection of scionwood available. Scroll down for the knife:
I hone my grafting knife using quality printing paper on a flat table, very effective way to keep the edge sharp. The cheap soft steel wears down quickly but takes a much finer edge.
Yes, hook bill is the term. I conflate a lot of things these days and it gets worse by the day 
Txs for the info, saw the pruning blade l call a chisel.
Grafting objective by me would be small scale. I am interested in seeing if l can “bud” as in T or “chip” a hardy scion to an existing, not disturb root system that has say a foot or so of live (but original grated tender) growth every spring but doesn’t bloom anymore e. g. Soupert et Notting (no eluded to pun intended) - bush roots at least 10 years plus old.
Riku, try chip budding, also. T budding requires the bark to lift well and with many stocks, can only easily be accomplished successfully during specific periods of the year. Chip budding is significantly easier and doesn’t require the bark to “slip” or lift easily. Hopefully, you have some multiflora type stocks or plants available. They appear to have thicker cambium layers than many other types, making budding easier to succeed.