Thoughts on hardy yellows/Hazeldean source?

Roses for Hybridizing
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1

Can anybody recommend a source for Hazeldean? It seems like I really need this rose if I’m interested in breeding hardy yellows.

As far as the tenders to cross with it…I’m thinking of the following. I really don’t know much about this.

Baby Love

High Voltage

Carefree Sunshine

First Impressions (thanks to Jim’s blog!)

Eyeconic Lemonade (hardy hulthemias? :slight_smile: )

One of my pure yellow Morden Sunrise seedlings

various P.Joy x M. Sunrise

I could also cross these same roses with Prairie Joy, I’m thinking. Some of my PJ x Morden Sunrise crosses came out to be a pretty nice apricot color, and maybe those seedlings can be crossed with a yellow. Prairie Joy, while not a strong rebloomer, has good hardiness and foliage.

I also have two Prairie Peace in the ground (just planted this year), and I could also cross that with the more tender yellows.

Does anyone know what happens when you cross a yellow rose with an orange one such as Orange Fire or Morden Fireglow?

Thanks for any feedback.

P.S. I would love to get out and visit any of you in the MN or WI area that have been working with hardy roses. If you are open to such a visit let me know: dart past the eagle at yahoo dot com

Joe

2

We have in Finland a local strain of a harisonii-type double-flowered yellow rose that is sold under the name “William’s Double Yellow”. It is hardier than Hazeldean, according to reports from a nursery in northern Finland. How does WDY do in your area? Have you tried it in breeding?

As for the yellows I’m also using the pimpinellifolia hybrids Aicha (hardy), Fruhlingsduft (marginally hardy) and Klaus Groth (marginally hardy). These may be too prone to bs in your area?

3

I haven’t heard of that rose. Another one to look for! :slight_smile:

Likewise I have not heard of your pimpinellifolia hybrids, but I am definitely not a rose expert and I’m just getting started breeding.

4

I have Hazeldean in my garden in Washington state. At present it has no suckers but if one turns up I would be happy to send it to you. I can also try tip layering later this season, if successful I could send it to you next spring.

5

I think Pink Robusta would give hardy yellows, blends and apricots if paired properly. Its actually quite beautiful in person, too.

6

I would suggest Prairie Celebration. It is a great seed parent - sets hips with everything that I have tried on it & the germination rate is pretty decent. I have gotten yellows and apricots out of it. It probably is the last of what you would call an Explorer rose.

Another Explorer that surprised me was John Cabot. I have a yellow out of it as well. Most of my John Cabot seedlings are shades of pink or the ocassional red. You have to use John Cabot as a pollen parent.

Prairie Harvest, a Buck rose, is probably too tender for you and it does have some disease issues.

Carefree Beauty, another Buck rose, is a good seed parent and has produced some yellow offspring.

I would stay away from JP Connel, another Explorer that is yellow. It is a disease nightmare and is not very winter hardy.

So for what it is worth, that is my 2 cents. Liz

7

I love Hazeldean. The only problem is recovering the recessive genes for rebloom. If I remember corectly only 1 in 8 seedlings when backcrossed to a rebloomer will be a rebloomer compared to 1 in 2 normally. This is in diploid, I imagine with tetraploids It is alot higher. And of you want Strong unfading yellow you have to have a recessive gene already there in the non yellow parent. There is a reason there are so few hardy yellows. Also to make things harder Hazeldean is a tripoid.

If I had to choose It would be Morden Sunrise X Hazeldean

To get Prairie Peace to germinate you need to use embryo extraction

8

Thanks for the responses, everybody!

Leonard: I’d definitely be interested if you get a sucker off of your Hazeldean. Since I sell bare root roses, maybe we can find a rose on my list that you’d be interested in. (that goes for anybody…I’d be happy to trade a rose or two for some Hazeldean suckers)

Jadae: Pink Robusta seems like a lovely plant. Fragrance is an added bonus. Sigh, this is an expensive addiction.

Liz: Interestingly, two years ago I ordered some Prairie Celebration from Aubin Nurseries in Manitoba. I was interested both in selling them and lining them out for trial and breeding. Unfortunately they didn’t match the description at all and when I called them the person I talked to guessed that they were actually Prairie Star, a Buck rose. It was a fortunate coincidence, however, because I’ve since found that the Prairie Star do very well here–much like an improved Morden Blush. I still haven’t gotten an actual Prairie Celebration to try.

I have some Prairie Harvest in the field that are doing OK but are not real vigorous. In a garden setting I think they’d be nice.

Do you have any experience with Prairie Sunrise (another Buck)? I have one in a pot in the greenhouse and it has amazingly huge, gorgeous blooms with a fragrance. But I have no idea about hardiness.

Johannes: Thanks for the info. I love the idea of Morden Sunrise x Hazeldean (although those MS seeds are a pain to germinate…often two years.)

So I wonder if it would be wise to keep all seedlings from a rebloomer x Hazeldean cross, not just those that showed juvenile reblooming tendencies. The seedlings that were not rebloomers might still be worth crossing again with a rebloomer. One problem is that if they also inherited dieback tendencies then they may never bloom.

9

My Prairie Celebration came from Hortico. Strange out those messed up orders can sometimes work out OK. That is how I ended up with Carefree Beauty. It was supposed to be Simon Fraser.

I had Praire Sunrise, gorgeous color and fragrance, but had disease issues and it just lacked vigor. I do still have a couple of seedlings from a cross with Everest Double Fragrance.

Even though Prairie Harvest is a triploid, I have been able to use it as a seed parent. The most interesting seedling from it so far is a cross with Red Fairy. It has taken a while for my Prairie Harvest bush to establish itself, but I think that perhaps it finally has.

In general the Buck roses for me (Guelph, Ontario) are just not hardy/disease resistant enough. After trying many of them, I am left with Carefree Beauty, Earthsong, and Prairie Harvest.

The Parkland series I tried a few and decided that they were not intended for my type of climate.

The Explorers that I still have are Champlain, William Baffin, Henry Kelsey, John Cabot, Alex Mackenzie, and Prairie Celebration. I have not really done much with Alex Mackensie, yet. It does not seem to suffer from the leaf spot all that much, compared to William Baffin and John Cabot. It probably has to be used as a pollen parent.

Last year a got a young Prairie Peace and it is really doing well. It has not bloomed yet, but I’m hoping that it does next year. I think that it might be interesting to work with.

Svejda published a paper many years ago on the inheritance of cold tolerance and she found that it seemed to be fairly additive, meaning predictable. I certainly see that when I cross a tender by an Explorer.

Good luck in your breeding activities, Liz

10

A very long time ago,J.H. Nicholas developed the concept of arcticness for roses. It first appeared in the U.K. National Rose society Annual of 1934, and is discussed in his book “A Rose Odyssey”. He covers the range from frost sensitive (0 % arctic) to 100% arctic (-30 F ), then goes on to list the extent to which various species and hybrids meet the requirement, expressed as a % of maximum. The halfway mark on his scale is somewhere around -5 to -10 F. His estimates are right on target for the old roses Dorothy Perkins (-10 to -15), van Fleet (0) or Silver Moon (above 0). He also explains why the Pernetianas are more cold hardy than one might expect based on Persian Yellow (75 %) blended with some strong HTs, HPs (~30 %), which gives a net of about 40 % meaning hardy to near 0 F.

I think there has been more recent discussion of this in terms of ability to tolerate supercooling of tissue based on accumulation of antifreeze molecules. There was some work on screening for hardiness using a freezing machine to cool slowly, as I recall. And I think the American Rose Annual had some articles on the topic early on.

Nicholas’ main point is that arcticness is a quantitative trait, so you have to select at every step of breeding. It is not a dominant or recessive trait, like petal number or flower color. If you want arcticness in a reblooming rose you will have to do a lot of backcrosses to really arctic roses.

But I might try beginning with a yellow “subzero” rose as my source of yellow. I like Golden Arctic (#84). They carry color and decent rebloom and in a cross to a fully arctic rose would be good to maybe -15 to -20. The problem would then be ploidy.

Notice that Persian Yellow is fully arctic on the Nicholas scale, and Bergeson nursery already sells it, despite B.S.

Austrian Copper would rank about the same in my book. And we know that it is a pollen donor to at least Carefree Beauty. This year I seem to have hips from A.C. pollen onto some other hybrids. But I can’t say much for sure until I get seedlings.

11

Larry,

How have you been using ‘Golden Arctic?’ I bought a plant of it two years ago to use as a seed parent after having some success with Roger Williams Park Golden Arctic (really Everblooming Pillar 124). ‘Golden Arctic’ had zero “takes” back in 2009, and that was when I realized it was a different rose. When I purchased ‘Golden Arctic’ again last fall, it had one hip on it (I forgot to take it to try to germinate the seeds). I later saw it at a friend’s house, and it had many open-pollinated hips.

This year I had one germination from 2009 of a cross of ‘Sweetness’ x ‘Golden Arctic.’ This seed was exposed to the elements and not watered for at least 18 months before it germinated.

Andy

12

The medium in which the plants grow may make a difference with respect to hardiness.

I had four plants of Scarlet Moss in pots that were a couple of years old last season. Two were killed over the winter (zone 5B/6a), a third suffered some damage and the fourth was unscathed. The only difference was the potting medium. The ones that died were in peat/perlite/bark mulch and the others were in ‘yard dirt’, basically fine sandy loam.

13

Thanks again, everybody.

Larry: I wonder how stem hardiness relates to crown hardiness.

For example, after my Emily Carr’s first two winters I was ready to write it off as less hardy because it died back all the way to the ground in winters where the Parkland (Morden) roses survived 3 or 4 inches above the ground. I was thinking of creating a hardiness scale based on a measurement of inches that the rose would survive above the ground in an average winter.

Now, about four years since I planted my two Emily Carr’s, they seem to have settled in to become very solid, established roses. They still die back basically to ground level, but always sprout vigorously back.

If crown hardiness and stem hardiness are basically the same trait maybe all we need is to add an inch or two of hardiness to a vigorous rebloomer to develop a rose that is crown hardy even in severely cold climates. This would allow more backcrossing in the re-blooming direction as opposed to continued backcrossing to hardy parents.

I’m hoping this is the case with my Knock Out x William Baffin seedling. It came back so vigorously this spring that I’m hoping I can do one more generation crossing it with somewhat tender roses and that the Baffin hardiness will still come through as crown hardiness in the offspring. If that works, maybe something similar could happen in a more yellow direction.

Liz: Thanks again for the detailed feedback. I can’t help recommending Prairie Joy if you haven’t tried it. Not totally blackspot resistant, but a world of difference from the other Parklands. I think it imparts loveliness.

14

Joe, Does Emily Carr work as a female?

15

I checked my Hazeldean and it has a very nice viable sucker. At the end of the season or next spring I can dig it our and send to you. It is an extremely nice yellow.

16

Wow, thanks, Leonard! I can send you back a bare root rose of your choosing in the spring (I get mostly own-root roses from Bailey Nurseries).

Lydia: My EC has set some very fat OP hips this year. It’s a little too early to tell on the hips that I’ve pollinated, but it’s definitely seed-fertile.

17

Thanks Joe. Nice to know.

18

Lydia,

I used Emily Carr in the greenhouse for hybridizing for 2 seasons before planting it outside. My experience with it is similar to Joe’s in that it does die back all the way to the crown (northern Wisconsin) but it rebounds well. It is a lovely rose with good repeat but does suffer some from blackspot and this was verified by another breeder in Minnesota. However, I had done a number of crosses with EC before I found this out. She is definitely female fertile. I have several seedlings that have come through one or two years of evaluation and are still hanging in there–they have had better disease resistance than I expected and haven’t been culled so far, but the crosses were done with two extremely BS-resistant roses. Like Joe, I am a big fan of Prairie Joy and the two together might produce a nice plant. I would definitely use another hardy parent if using EC in crosses–she is a bit too borderline to be considered a “hardy” parent.

19

Thanks Julie. Most of my breeders are dead to the ground most winters. I need something that will produce recurrence with my own relatively cane hardy non repeaters. I will have to freeze the pollen next year. Prairie Joy blooms somewhat later than my hardies, like right now, so it’s available for the floribundas. Prairie Celebration is producing it’s second crop & there’s still time for the hips to mature.

20

Andy, I haven’t used Golden Arctic for 20 years or so. But it gave me one of my best out of Carefree Beauty. Never a freezeback at all to around -10 which is about all we see here any more. But even Joseph’s Coat on C.B. does OK to below 0. Never got anything worth keeping with Golden Arctic as seed parent. Not that fertile, poor germination, so not a huge number of chances.

My opinion, but I there there is data to back it, is that crown and cane are basically the same in frost sensitivity. Probably so is root. The difference is heat transfer effects. With leaf cover you can have cold down to 0 F and have frost-sensitive plants like oxalis and gladiolus regularly survive the winter, under just a few inches of dirt. But if it stays at 0 for weeks it does far more damage than two or three nights would.

Simple stupid test that I’ve done a number of times. Leave some own root roses in pots sitting out all winter. The really hardy will do just fine. The “crown-hardy” will die, because the roots and crown get to the ambient temp that’s lethal. So pots of R. canina, William Baffin, Belle Poitevine, Anne de Diesbach, Jacques Cartier, all tolerated 2 winters when it got below 0 for a couple days, sans snow cover. Pots buried to the rim protect a lot more CV that, when left exposed, die.

Snow cover helps for the quick excursions of temp. So does preadaptation, that is, some days of a few degrees above 0 before the plunge, for many CV.