In hot areas, there is a bit of a conundrum. Fragrance usually comes with thin petals. Thin petals tend to wilt in the heat. Thick petals hold up to the heat better, but tend to block fragrance. The solution would seem to be to find varieties that produce their fragrance not from the petals, but from stamen, pistils etc… Has anyone ever studied which varieties have strong non-petal fragrances, and would they share that list? Old Blush actually has pleasant smelling pollen, but I haven’t checked other plants for non-petal sourced fragrance. Some varieties have fragrant foliage, but since people stick their noses in the flower, I’d like to focus on flower based fragrance.
That’s likely a way to tackle the issue, Charles. My observation over the past thirty years has been the more fragrant the plant parts, the more fragrant, and papery, the petals. It seems when the petals have the “substance”, the waxy petal cuticle which both increases durability as well as sealing the petioles against scent production, the plant parts are also more “durable” with little to no scent. I liken it to being “polished”. It impresses me as a potential result of the inclusion of Wichurana genes. I perceive little scent from Wichurana plant parts nor from any of its close hybrids. Observing more modern roses which share very similar foliage and wood textures, the lack of scent to the plant parts holds pretty true. It isn’t an absolute, but seems a high correlation. Smelling the blooms, plant parts and pollen, as well as emasculated blooms prior to pollination, has been an obsession of mine for a very long time.
What an interesting question! I noticed once that the old Hybrid Tea ‘Tallyho’ had clove-scented pollen. The whole flower smelled more generally HT-like, but the pollen was distinctly and decidedly fragrant on its own. Peter Harris’ R-15 also has fragrant pollen. It’s a cross between ‘Golden Showers’ and ‘Hazeldean’–I don’t know which of these it gets the trait from.
Betsy
Minnesota, zone -4 below Canada
One of the most surprising to me has been Banksiae lutescens. I repeatedly have read of Banksiae’s “violet scent”, as if that is something sweet smelling and “attractive”. To me, IF I can perceive any scent from a Banksiae, it does smell like “violet” or even “pansy”, though it’s the bitter, skunky on the back of my tongue scent of the green plant parts. Even the open flowers of all the Banksiaes have that stench to me, like the “tea scent” to Tea roses (to my nose, Orthene and fresh Tupperware plastic). Yet, when I collect anthers and stamen from lutescens and dry them, for the first two days they have an almost unendurable spicy, clove scent. It’s like an extract of clove, though spicier and sweeter than a freshly opened package of cloves. It’s particularly perceptible if the parts are dried inside a baby food jar so the jar itself contains more of the odoriferous substances so they don’t evaporate and diffuse through the larger air mass of the room. I don’t remember if I’ve noticed a scent like it from drying 86-3 pollen, nor even what (if anything) I remember 86-3’s flowers to smell like.
I am confused by this post. Mister Lincoln and Chrysler Imperial have good petal substance, and also great fragrance. I can list more HTs with good petal substance and fragrance. Also all of the very fragrant HTs I am using also have very fragrant pollen.
So how strong is the correlation between papery petals and scent, if there are so many exceptions?
Cathy
Central NJ
Cathy, as with most other traits, “petal substance” is relative. Perhaps in your climate, Lincoln and Imperial are considered to posses good substance, and perhaps for highly scented roses, they may. Increase the extremes of heat and light intensity and they fail quickly. Compare their lasting ability and durability for handling, storage and transportation to something like Veteran’s Honor and some of the other exhibition favorites as well as the more successful florist types and it should provide decent examples. There are some well scented roses which are considered sufficiently durable and lasting for florist work, just as there are some highly scented “exhibition” types, but they are the exceptions and don’t last as well as the waxy, more substantial petaled types. Take a look at the exhibition reports from the ARS or your local society, or hit the local markets or florists for even more current examples.
Most of the scent from Stanwell Perpetual comes from the stamens. Also, I noticed the pollen of an R.arkansana had a peppermint scent to it.
To Roseseek, I will do the research that you suggest. Thanks!
Cathy
Central NJ
Climate and relative humidity (and especially wind) has so much to do with the longevity (or not) of fragrant roses. Mr. Lincoln was relegated to the big compost in the sky because by the time he got around to blooming, the blooms withered in the plus 78 degree low humidity and often windy late spring/early summer days. I celebrated getting one or two good bouquets from a really big shrub. The autumn weather was really iffy, because of the high temps and Santa Ana winds. Just getting one good bloom stem was an occasion. I grew Chrysler Imperial when I lived about 30 mi inland and then could only rely on good blooms from Nov to April. But even those shriveled and crisped blooms were fragrant. How anything with fragrant flowers blooms in the late spring to late fall in the even hotter temps of Arizona or Texas escapes me. The two very fragrant roses I have now are ELLE and Barbra Streisand. They both have wonderfully thick petals with substance (certainly not papery) and ELLE pretty much produces a large early spring flush and a nice late flush in early winter, but anything that could be considered summery renders the blooms toast if not picked by 9AM. B.Streisand promises a great bloom every spring but rarely delivers. Even though that rose is on the recommended for this area list, even my plant (not just the flowers) has been a failure. I do have above average wind, being located on the upside of the end of a canyon, so this is a huge factor. Grandmothers’ Hat, which is promising to be a sturdy shrub, has quite short lived flowers here. While many rosegrowers do not like the ‘brown tissue on a stick’ roses, these are the truly tough roses in windy situations. But they do require keeping a pruning shears in your pocket and forgoing anything but the lightest of scents.
Fragrance on pollen, in varying degrees, seems to be present in most of the roses I grow, and has a strong spice flavor in many. I rarely pass up an opportunity to inhale deeply when pollinating. I find it is a very pleasant fragrance, but quite different from the scent in the petals.
You’re welcome. I think it will help fine tune the idea and demonstrate the relativity.
There is no fragrance thin petal linkage.
For a long time thicker petals were selected for letting fragrance vanish. Particularly exhibition and florist roses.
Part of fragrance emission is linked to petal softening something evidently postponed by thicker petals.
Another part is related to flower opening, often differents scents.
In both processes the slower opening of thick petal roses induce a dilution of perfumes.
No wonder that thin petal snell opening thin petal OGR roses are more scented. The more so that the scented are the ones we better remember.
For similar reasons other features such as cut flower duration or desease resistance were also supposed to be negatively linked to fragrant flowers.
That there are no such linkages is actually examplified by Kordes recently releasing very thick petal very desease resistant vars with strong fragrance.
Here is how 2013 intro Mme Anisette is described:
“Hybrid tea rose type Grandiflora, as the flowers appear in wonderful clusters. Very elegant flower and a strong scent of anise, upright growth habit, very healthy and heat-tolerant, high disease resistance.”
http://www.kordes-rosen.com/special-series/parfuma/gardenrose-madame-anisette-2l-pot
Pierre,
I’m glad to know that since my selections are for long flower duration when there’s a choice.
There now appears to be a linkage between leaf retention, especially in the dead of winter to high disease resistance. It"s showing up even in the HT and Grandiflora along with the nearly wild. I’m watching tiny red buds trying to develop knowing there’s sever weather yet to come.
It’s is now so nice to pick though the best 4-5 hundred seedlings that far out perform the thousands of has been and select for fragrance and none fade et cetera.
Neil
That there are no such linkages is actually examplified by Kordes recently releasing very thick petal very desease resistant vars with strong fragrance.
Unfortunately Kordes ignores the American market, none of the more recent roses are available here. Strange but true.
That’s been the case in recent years, Don, but no more. Newflora exists to get them into what’s left of the US market. http://www.newflora.net/download.php
That’s been the case in recent years, Don, but no more. Newflora exists to get them into what’s left of the US market.
I keep hearing that but I’m not seeing them in the marketplace. Newflora gets several hundred roses per year from Kordes to evaluate and, for sure, some have been introduced here but not as many as could be. Moreover, almost none of the ADR winners made it here.
My wishlist includes:
Portorož
Gartenfreund
Out of Rosenheim
Dolomiti
Solero
Flirt 2011 (these last two might actually be available in Canada)
Also there is a 2013 ADR winner from Kordes that has not yet been named. See http://www.kordes-rosen.com/download/20131001_ADR2013_engl.pdf
Other recent Kordes introductions that would be interesting to grow are
Airbrush
Gräfin Diana
KORoligeo - possibly Kordes’ Jubilee
Mandy
Mirage
Moment in Time
Parkinson Beauty
Traumfrau
TRE-0138
Figi - aka Cheery Lady -actually being released this year. According the Newflora this is one of the most disease resistant releases from Kordes.
This year’s introductions (2014) via Newflora are here
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.452360904876866.1073741827.273498446096447&type=3
Here is a link to an interview with Chris Pellett of Newflora
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rosechat/2013/10/17/rose-chat-radio-exploring-the-world-of-roses
If anyone from Newflora reads this I volunteer to host a test bed for you (north central CT zone 5a/5b).
It’s entirely possible the ADR winners aren’t resistant to our strains of black spot, or are otherwise inappropriate for the US climates in which they’ve been tested, too.
I can only say, if you get your hands on some of those seeds, it’s the difference between night and day. I liberated a few hips from a so-so looking Meidland. Shhh.
Neil
It’s entirely possible the ADR winners aren’t resistant to our strains of black spot, or are otherwise inappropriate for the US climates in which they’ve been tested, too.
On the first count I’d have to say ‘so what’ because the Kordes program has been no-spray for nearly twenty years which is time enough to start seeing horizontal resistance emerge which is to say not race-dependent.
On the second count see my very serious offer of hosting a test garden. We get the entire run of the country’s disease spores here because of the wind patterns and we match northern Germany for hardiness requirements.
ADR does value disease resistance highly, but that doesn’t mean the roses don’t get disease even in their trials. Roses just have to be above a certain threshold across the sites for health. Many points come from floral quality too. ADR winners are strong performing roses no doubt in their climate(s) and of great value to try to grow here. Gartenfreund® is available from Mark Chamblee and was in Lowes and Home Depot last year as Flamingo Kolorscape. It is a very nice rose with what appears to have strong horizontal black spot resistance. I had it for the past few years. Lemon Fizz, Kardinal, etc. are all also great Kordes roses available now from Mark’s catalog in the US. These have slight fragrance though. I’m excited to get Beverly from Edmunds hopefully this year and some of the other Parfuma series in the future.
Beverly is four stars for perfume three stars for BS and two stars for PM, rather similar Wedding Bells is 3,4 and 3 respectively.
Is an article about ‘Meitroni’. In France this variety has the trade name Prince Jardinier. In Germany it is marketed under the name Schloss Ippenburg, in Japan as My Garden en in the US as Francis Meilland.
Here french Riviera and with a trying environment, Kordes roses behave according to breeder quotation when Meitroni despite being the only rose being awarded in the three main no sprays rose trials in the world: the german ADR in 2008, the french Grand prix de la Rose SNHF in 2010, the american AARS in 2013 (last award in the historical form) does not.