The wonderful and lost Cl


Lucia is quite similar so that may be an option. Another option is to email Kordes. They used it a lot and may be able to help your search along. Im assuming that they know english since they are international. A third option would be to contact HMF and see if they know who posted the picture.

I don’t think Alex from HMF wouldn’t go that far to give out personal information.

And I did write a billingual letter to Kordes headquarters 2 years ago. A friend who studied German wrote translated my letter, and my English teacher (who was German) fixed it up properly.

There was no reply…

Well, I guess it wouldn’t do any harm to see I can find that garden again and try to find a way of making a letter in their language.

I admire your persistance!


A while ago I emailed the Estonia garden that had it listed, but there was no reply. The language, which looks like Finnish, is beyond my understanding. I placed a question in the Q&C part on CG’s entry in HMF. Maybe the poster of the photo will read it. He/she must be able to read English otherwise he/she would not have been able to post a picture on HMF.

I just saw that it is listed in the Kordes Flori list of Roseto Fineschi in Italy. I sent them an e-mail to see whether it still actually grows in that garden. If it does they may be able to send some budwood in fall.

I’ll let you know about the Roseto when they reply on my e-mail.


You might also contact Paul Zimmerman at Ashdown. He has imported from Kordes with the objective of adding more Kordes roses to those already available and Marily Young, who volunteers at Fineschi, is one of the folks who does Ashdown’s website. I’ve seen the Fineschi inventory on her computer (and it’s massive and impressive.)

For what it may be worth, the picture of Clare G at the botanical garden in Tallinn is quite unlike the picture of Clare G at Sangerhausen. Perhaps some seasonal differences were involved in the differences, but even the petal shapes seemed different. I do not know where Roseto Fineschi acquired its stock.

I just got an e-mail from the Roseto, from Marily Young, and they still grow Clare. She offered to send me some cuttings. I want to get some info to see if I can get a nursery to bud some plants for me. If I have it propagated here I may be able to send it to the US. Of course there are phytosanitary regulations, but at least it is a possibility in the future. I understand that the US has more stringent regulations on import from Italy than from the Netherlands.

I didn’t know it was also in Sangerhausen. The picture from Tallinn is not online anymore, the new gallery doesn’t have the CG pic. I saw one other pic and that rose looked much like Lichtkoniging Lucia to me. Peter, do you have a link to the picture from Sangerhausen? What do you think about the picture at HMF?


You could aslo email Poulsen and Dicksons if they know where it may be located in a garden or something since they seem to have used it as well. BTW I saw a really nice Chinatown recently at Joy Creek Nurseries. It looked like a really nice pillar rose.

I do not have a link to the Sangerhausen picture. And it is possible that the picture I was assuming is from Sangerhausen is actually from Fineschi. I will have to check on that. The rose shown in the picture on HMF is very like the picture that was in the Tallinn gallery, but the gallery picture showed only one blossom. The color is the same and the petals are the same, with toothed or serrated tips. If you’d like a copy of the picture from Tallinn to compare for yourself, send me your email address.

The site which had a lot of the pictures from the Tallinn gallery shows a rose much like the one I had been thinking was from Sangerhausen. A thumbnail without pasted across the front is at and the larger but defaced picture is at the link below.


Thank you Peter. I looked in a different gallery that came up when I searched with Google. I remember that I saw the picture you linked to yesterday. That was the one that looked so much like my Lichtkonigin. I hope you can find that other picture (or the source).


The rose which looks like the one on the site is the one which I’d thought was in Sangerhausen but is in Roseto Fineschi. It does not have the toothed or serrated petal tips. Reportedly it has been in Roseto Fineschi for a long time.

I have two pictures of CG now, one from the Varafoto gallery (which is the one in the Tallinn garden?) and one from HMF, which was shot in Levala. If I understand correctly, you have another picture of CG from the Roseto? And the Varafoto/Tallinn one looks like the one in the Roseto, but differs from the one on HMF? Or am I now mixing things up?

If you have any more pictures besides the two I have, could you e-mail them?



Thanks for e-mailing the pictures. Now I have 4 pictures of Clare. The one of Fineschi, HMF and Varafoto look quite similar. The Tallinn gallery rose looks different. Maybe it’s another rose, or a damaged or freaky bloom? I don’t think there are two varieties, because the Tallinn picture is balanced by the two other Estonian pictures that do resemble the Fineschi picture. Otherwise I would expect all the Estonian pictures to look similar and the Fineschi one to look different.

Unfortunately, it seems that Clare was popular for breeding but not as a commercial variety. I have found no descriptions of the rose in the books I have (not many though). Maybe others have found descriptions of it.


To me the upper right blossom in the HMF picture looks very much like that in the picture I sent from the Tallinn gallery–in color, size, toothed petals, and all the rest, but from the side. It’s possible that CG’s petals have variable toothiness, depending on the time of the year and other factors. I noticed that at least one of the petals on either the Fineschi picture or the varafoto picture has the beginnings of serration. What I’m thinking is that these various pictures may all be manifestations of the same rose under slightly different conditions.


I am more than happy to get those cuttings and root them out for people.

Even if one plant survives,

at least it is in the US where other US rose growers can propogate and share.

Recently I’ve air layered propogating from my R. moschata abysinnica-- and hopefully that will be one rose that will get a little bit more circulation in the future.

Hi Rob

Did you ever get any Clare Grammerstorf cuttings from Marily Young??

I have looked for it in Denmark too, but have not been able to find it. I have also tried to mail Poulsen Roses, who made Chinatown, but they were no help either, sadly.



Hey, folks! Peter just let me know that there was a recent post to this thread, so… thought I’d jump in with a little more information. Good news! I have managed to obtain rooted cuttings of CG. Don’t get too excited, as they are in quarantine, and will be for the next 23 months. But in the meantime… you can all keep your fingers crossed for their survival.


Very interesting Roseynut, fingers crossed.

Where did you find/get the CG from?


Bo, I did not receive the cuttings, because I wanted to find a nursery that could bud CG too. My skills in taking cuttings are not so great and I wanted to split the risk, so to speak. However, I was too late in the season for the nursery to bud the rose and had to wait till this year.

Now that I read that the cuttings of CG are already in North America I think it best to let the people there work with it. It’s probably a great addition to the possible parents to produce hardy yellow climbers, and I can’t test for hardiness anyway, since I am in zone 7. Also, I already have two descendents, Lichtkonigin Lucia and Chinatown, to work with.