Teas and noisettes worth breeding with

Roses for Hybridizing
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Hi! I thought I could ask about this given I’m making a list of sorts of roses to try and get. I’m particularly interested in teas and noisettes due to the tolerance they often have for hot and arid locations and that is my current geographical luck.

I guess a big part of the question’s answer would depend on my goals and essentially I would love to obtain near thornless, medium sized plants with fragrant blooms in noveau colours.

I’m partial to non solitary blooms. I like groups of 3 large flowers the best, but not completely opposed to many tiny flowers nor one single jumbo bloom.

For example, one rose I have and consider near perfect is Mrs Dudley Cross. It is however extremely infertile, both ways. There’s a little tiny bit of a chance as a father, but no hope as a mother.

Any indications are highly appreciated. Chinas and hybrid musks are also nice, but I feel I have my eyes on which u would want already, whereas for teas and noisettes I don’t.

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Mons Tillier, Mme Antoine Mari, Marie van Houtte, Madame Lambard, Général Schablikine should all be relatively easy to find and have a number of descendants. Also look for the Viraraghavan Tea, Faith Whittlesey. It’s fertile in both directions and a great plant.

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Thank you on the great leads, Kim.

I notice on Faith Whittlessey’s hmf page the fragrance is described as ‘unpleasant’. I’m more curious than put off. What would you compare it to? Love the lineage.

For some reason I can’t bring myself to like Reve d’Or, one of it’s constituents. The flowers are too peachy and pallid for my taste.

But I know Reve d’Or is a venerable plant. So I’ve been meaning to look for plants I like better but carry its genes. If memory does not fail me one that I had wanted was Florence Delattre.

I love yellow but at the same time I have a very narrow window for what I consider ‘good’ yellow shades. Lady Hillingdon, Francesca, Ghislaine Feligonde. That very rich butter yellow and some lighter variations or blends of it.

Do you have any opinions on Safrano, it’s sport Isabella Sprunt, and Solfaterre? I’ve been eyeing the yellow sport of mutabilis too.

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You’re welcome, Pendulina. I’ve avoided Safrano, Sprunt and Solfaterre due to mildew issues in the West. I also look at what they made. If there are only a handful of results, or if the main results are sports or OP, I pass. I understand what you wrote about “desirable yellows”, but remember, those you listed begin attractive then quickly fade to “old floor wax”. Really pretty the first day but by the third, “meh”. I’d rather they remain attractive to me a bit longer, so I’m more willing to look at stronger yellows.

Faith’s scent is “odd”. I probably should begin by saying “Tea” scent to me is Orthene and clean Tupperware. I don’t find that scent attractive in the least. Faith’s scent is much more than “Tea”, and, no, I don’t find it “pleasant”, but that doesn’t prevent me from growing and enjoying the plant and using it to play with. It accepts many pollens and sets viable seeds, two traits far too many “Teas” refuse to do.

You should probably also look at Papa Gontier, seed parent, with Isabella Sprunt, of Mrs. B.R. Cant, another which has been successfully used.

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You may want to try ordering some R. multiflora nana seeds (they’re sold under different names: R. chinensis minima, angel wings, party mix, and some more). They would allow you to get medium sized reblooming plants while remaining quite close to multiflora. The strain I got over here (EU) yielded some thornless seedling. I don’t think you could easily get non fading yellows from that line, however.

I used their pollen for a few pollination last year and I got seeds rather easily from modern seed parents. Most of the seedlings died on average 2 weeks post germination for no apparent reason. The one seedling I got that reached maturity was, however, extremely beautiful (and thornless). Unfortunately it died when I went away for a weekend leaving it in full sun; out of the seedlings I lost throughout the years, this is the one I “grieved” the most. You can see some pictures and its parentage here. I might try to obtain something else from this cross in the future.

One other way you might consider, that could also be faster, is the David Austin clan. Many of their varieties are similar in concept to what you might want to get. Bathsheba comes to mind, but I’ve only obtained a handful of OP seeds from it in 4 years. No pollen, so it could mean that most OP seeds are from real outcrosses, but you might want to give it a try (knowing it would be a very hard route).

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My all time favorite tea is spice, sometimes labeled as burmuda spice. It is incredibly healthy and has a great fragrance that transforms as the flower ages. I would describe it as black pepper and apple pie seasoning. Doesnt set hips often (it’s also self cleaning) and the pollen seems reluctant to want to take. I believe I have 3 spice x r. Woodsii seedlings in my window sill right now though.

I also love faith Whittlesey, can’t speak on it more than the others :slight_smile:

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Kim suggested Marie Van Houtte and Antique Rose Emporium considers it to be “Mrs. Dudley Cross on steroids”. It works well as a seed parent

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Isn’t it well thorny? One thing that has stopped me from gettings it was that. I may be misremembering. Mrs Dudley is truly near-thornless. And it’s a trait I appreciate rather highly

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Crepuscule! It has magic in its genes. I wish I had used it more often.

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I agree ! I used it a lot and it gave me some beauties (not commercial, but wow)

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Oh hey! Are you THE Matthias Meilland? If so, do you have any comments on official distribution of Meilland roses in Mexico?

A couple handfuls of years back I saw them being distributed with tags and all the legals via supermarket chain H-E-B.

The tag mentioned who was growing them (the contractor/greenhouse I don’t know what to call them)

I do not remember their name but I believe they have closed. There was a contact number and email and I think I did receive an answer back then but it was not eventful.

The reason I’m asking this is because here in Mexico roses are not normally sold through legal means; Plants are propagated regardless of patents and rights, simply nameless or with dumb made up names and such, and those H-E-B tagged Meilland roses were the first and last “attempt” I saw of that happening here.

As an aspiring Mexican breeder and overall fanatic of roses the situation is discouraging and sad.

The roses back then were about 300-400 MXN and the unlawful propagations were about 25MXN (Nowadays about 60 MXN)

With no rose culture and people thinking that hybrid garden roses generate as wild plants collected from “jungles in the Amazones” (actual stupid thing I’ve heard said) instead of generations of people’s breeding efforts, I can imagine it’s a tough market.

I later found out at some similar point in time David Austin also tried to distribute properly via Home Depot here. Never saw that in person but a national mentioned it in a different forum.

The selection of Meillands that H-E-B was selling was small, but choice. I bought Charles de Gaulle and was thinking of buying Gina Lollobrigida too, but missed it.

My Charles de Gaulle has since died and I’m still hoping I could have it again. Wonderful fragrance, I can almost smell it if I concentrate. Similar to ‘Angel Face’ but recognizably different, fresher, and even citrusier.

Your insight would be appreciated. I would love to understand more angles of the challenges the proper marketing of roses/plants faces here

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Hehehe THE is exaggerated :wink: but I’m the 6 generation in the business :wink:

I know well Mexico, I spent my time as a teenager in Tenancingo and other places where our clients were. And yes, even if there is a law in Mexico for plant breeders rights, it has been destroyed by courts and judges.

We would love to start again there because we have done so much in your country so many years ago (1970’s to 2000) but as far as we know, it is almost impossible to get a positive judgement about PBR, so this is why most breeders are not doing anything there.

Hope this answer is good for you, and don’t hesitate to MP me if you have a question :wink:

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Why past tense Paul? Surely, “I will use it more often in the future”

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Well, Brian - I say that because I retired from rose breeding in 2010 and haven’t done anything meaningful since then. Sure, I’ve grown a handful of open pollinated seeds out of curiosity, but that’s about it. To be honest, I grew tired of producing 3000-5000 seedlings a year and discarding all but twenty or so by year two. It just wore me out.

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Paul, if you don’t mind…May I ask if you were trying to be a “one man show”, or was it profitable enough that you could farm some of the work out?
I did only 300 crosses (a record for me) last spring, and even that is plenty of work for what I still call a hobby. I worry about burn out as well.

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My partner and I ran a nursery (roses exclusively) and it was profitable enough that it paid for itself, some employees and covered the R&D expenses for my breeding program.
But my hybrids never paid for their creation and distribution by themselves.

After ten years of that work, I had definitely burned out and I was comfortable with walking away. I very much felt like “my work here is done” and moved on. Just as well, since the Polar Vortex of 2015 destroyed 90% of all the plants in the greenhouses, including most of the roses that were still “under evaluation” from years earlier. I lost most of my proprietary breeding plants that year as well. Good thing I was not as invested in them as I had been 5 years earlier.

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