'Sweet Chariot' has thrown only non-repeaters...

I was playing around with OP ‘Sweet Chariot’ seeds this season and I’ve got seedlings growing on now that are about five months old. It seems to germinate very easily. So I’ve pollinated it this season with a range of pollens. BUT. None of the OP seedlings turned out to be repeaters (so far). The seedlings aren’t too bad; a little on the mildewy side. I know ‘Violette’ is the pollen parent so it’s probably carrying non-remontancy and from what people have said here it is diploid, but it just seems strange that they all turned out this way. I haven’t thrown them away based on Paul’s explanation of the delayed onset of remontancy in 0-47-19 seedlings. How does it behave with other crossed pollen? I was assuming there would be a 50:50 split of remontants:non-repeaters but it doesn’t seem to be segregating this way in the OPers???

Hey Simon. Maybe some will eventually become repeaters. Maybe these just don’t have the juvenile remontancy tendency, which could explain part of what you are observing in them. Time will tell.

Also, if rose flower repeat is recessive, I would guess that eventually you would kind of expect to see a 1:4 repeater:non-repeater result, not 50:50 (which would be expected for dominantly inherited traits).

I hope I am not talking rubbish…LOL.

Hang on… that’s right… repeat has been descirbed on here as being recessive and ‘Sweet Chariot’ repeats all season so it can’t be carrying non-repeat. So what give???


I totally love this thread you have started!!


Simon, you are talking about SC as an assumed diploid.

What I worte further up I am guessing is maybe true for some tetraploids containing two sets of repeat genes only!!!

So…Here’s another stab at this…LOL:

So, assuming SC is diploid, do repeater diploids have two sets of repeater chromosomes in order for them to repeat?? (one from the maternal gene set, and one from the pateral gene set)??

If that assumption is true, shouldn’t 100% of the selfings eventually be repeaters in that case (assuming there is no other extra genetic repressor/modifying influence that is going on, which would result in less that 100%)???

I love this thread!!

lol maybe they are all under some weird genetic influence as babies, that represses remontancy in thier juvenile phase of life…


I think it is highly likely that the remontancy genes won’t get “switched on” until their second year. I have seen many breeding lines that work this way. Don’t make any assumptions just yet :slight_smile:

I know rugosa do this… still waiting for some rugosa seedlings to get their first flowers three years after germination but I’m still fully expecting them to be remontant when they grow up… maybe it’s the same thing???

I’m assuming ‘Sweet Chariot’ is diploid given ‘Little Chief’ and ‘Violette’ probably are too.

It could very well be the plant requires sufficient maturation, perhaps stored food or ability to absorb enough food, prior to ovulation and reproduction. They aren’t just making a flower or two, nor one or two hips, but sprays of them. It’s almost as if they are dwarfed climbers, requiring enough roots before over taxing itself.

I remembered…I raised selfs of Excellenz von Schubert years ago and they never repeated. Several never flowered at all.

I’ve had a similar experience with Lavender Dream ops, but I’ve gotten a very small number of juvenile bloomers from the second or third generation of op seedlings from a once blooming offspring of LD. Right now I have 3 seedlings with buds from a population of about 40. They’re all very multiflora in character & the parent of the current crop is white. This year I’ve also had a few germinations from Sweet Chariot. We’ll see how that goes.

Now lets see…

in 2008 I crossed Rosy Purple with Violette pollen, and also with Vineyard Song. Both crosses resulted in about a 50/50 split of plants that bloomed in year one and those that didn’t. However, by 2010, all of the selections I kept (some from both groups, mind you) were repeating as regularly as the best Polys.

Sweet Chariot is one of the most powerfully fragrant roses I have ever owned… Its scent literally wafted many yards down wind, when I had it here in suburbia, last year.

I got rid of it last year, becasue the blooms looked like balck fried pom poms during the hotter parts of the seaseon. I miss its fragrant impact a lot, I might even go and get another one, just for the fragrance, who cares if the flowers fry in the heat!

Sweet Chariot is not available in Europa, but many diploids are quite self sterile; so from my experience I would infer your OP seedlings are from bee crosses to a not too far growing non reccurent rose.

Simon, if you want to try a freaky experiment, try giving some of the non-repeaters some willow water. (will stems w/ growth buds boiled in water, then cooled). See if the acids will promote fruiting.

I use willow water for cuttings. Didn’t know it also promoted flowering too.

Trying to think what non-recurrent roses might be around it… none that I can think of really…

It is supposed to promote a cascade of effects that lead to fruiting, which I guess is a similar chain of chemical effects as cutting the roots of an old wisteria that refuses to bloom. This is all theory but it sounds like you have the possibility for a fun trial.

I had the same experience that Kim had with EVS. The OP were non repeaters.They were in a somewhat isolated bed with 2 other roses that were repeaters so I assume they were selfed. I guess I never thought about it; thanks Kim for bringing it to my attention.



If you moved the Sweet Chariot (assume potted) to a shady spot for the warmest part of the summer season, do you think that would prevent the blossoms from “frying?” Just a thought.


Hi Jim P!!

A good idea!

Also, in my climate SC grows as a very vigorous poly. I think it really prefers to be in the ground, (like so many roses), or else planted in a pretty large pot, if it is going to be kept happy.

Ralph had originally grown it in pots, finding it weeps when kept root bound. He said it was standing there enjoying the fragrance and sight of a walk lined on both sides with it in hanging baskets the name came to him. In small pots, it does weep, almost being a ground cover. In the open ground, it’s like a smaller multiflora, similar to how McGredy’s striped minis grow. Like little Dr. Hueys. Kim