Hardy,
is there a specific pollen parent you want to try with SP? Have you thought about using SP pollen instead? I have used it’s pollen about a half dozen times including on three different plants this year.
Years ago I raised a few seedlings of ‘Pristine Pavement’ (very accepting rugosa of many kinds of pollens) x SP. It was hard for me to get much pollen from SP, but it worked successfully. These seedlings looked like clear hybrids with somewhat wirey stems and bristly stems that had thinner prickles. When they flowered they were very double and did not set hips and I had a hard time finding pollen. They had more black spot than I’d like and eventually lost them. It was interesting to have this cross work. I remember reading or hearing people say that the spin used for ‘Suzanne’ and ‘Haidee’ was likely SP. I sure love SP. Its fragrant double flowers are beautiful and the low spreading and mounded plant form is nice.
David,
I like SP also and I think it could be used more. A number of years ago I used it on one of the John Davis OP OP plants you gave me and on a Morden Centennial OP I have. They didn’t have good enough disease resistance or petal substance to keep. This year I have (90) seeds from a cross of a seedling of your mix-o-ploid rugosa and SP, I have 16 seeds from that cross planted so far. I don’t expect exceptional flowers from this cross but I do expect good disease resistance and hardiness.
I would have used SP as a pollen parent this year, but my plant was pretty small, and the squirrels destroyed the buds as soon as they were close to opening. I’ll try again next year. I’ve asked about the possibility of getting some Paula Vapelle, too. I’m thoroughly stocked with cinnamomeae and their hybrids at the moment, with around 20 different kinds, so finding good matches shouldn’t be hard.
My only hesitance about using SP is its low female fertility. While I have gotten some decent seedlings from plants that only set one occasional seed per hip, it takes some pretty compelling reason for me to use a rose like that, and I’m leery of passing that infertility on to offspring, since I’m trying to breed breeding stock, not garden roses.
I’m more interested in it as a research subject. I want to know where that rebloom came from. I understand fedtschenkoana rebloom, but I’d love to be able to exploit other non-chinensis rebloom types, and find ways to combine them if possible. If SP turns out to have chinensis rebloom, that won’t be very useful, but at least we’ll know.
David, were those Pristine Pavement X Stanwell Perpetual seedlings remontant?
Hi Joe,
I’m trying to remember… I don’t think they were.
Is PP presumed to have only rugosa-based rebloom?
Assuming that Pristine Pavement does have only rugosa-based rebloom, then it’s interesting that the seedlings were not remontant. Usually, to the best of my knowledge, the chinensis type of remontancy ‘works’ with the rugosa type. I have a lot of Belle Poitevine x modern and Rugosa #3 x modern seedlings that are fully remontant (and likely triploid).
So perhaps there is the implication of a different type of rebloom, but I don’t pretend to even begin to understand these things.
Fedtschenkoana does not seem to rebloom for me, nor does my beggeriana (I thought someone mentioned that as a rebloomer), while Ross Rambler seems to rebloom consistently.
Maybe going off on a tangent, but there is some really interesting stuff under References on the HMF page for Ross Rambler, in regards to rebloom:
"A number of seedlings were grown from a plant raised by cross pollinating the Ross rose with pollen from a variety of rugosa X Eglanteria parentage. These varied greatly as one would expect from such mixed parentage but none showed any sign of the climbing habit. Several are being kept but so far only one has been named. It makes a large bush seven feet tall and is well clothed with leaves which have a faint sweetbrier fragrance. The single flowers are white and there are a dozen or more in a cluster but the special interest of this plant is the continuous blooming habit. In 1945 the first blooms opened on June 11 and all summer long the bush was never without a flower and even on October 18, there were buds ready to open as well as bright red hips. It has been named Nascapee.
"In “The Arcticness of Various Roses” by Percy H. Wright,
"…-30℉ …hardiness is not adequate for a large region in prairie Canada and parts of the adjacent northwestern states. With us, winter temperatures reach -45℉ every season and often descend considerably lower. In 1936 we experienced -59℉., and 57 consecutive days passed when the thermometer never once lifted above -29℉., either night or day…the Ross Rambler, of which an account was given on page 115 of the 1935 Annual, seems hardy through the prairie area, and, in addition, possesses the everblooming quality in greater abundance than does R. rugosa.
It would be fun to experiment with rugosa x Ross Rambler and modern rose x Ross Rambler to see what percentage of seedlings appear to be remontant.
Since SP rarely sets hips you’re probably not going to find out much about its parentage with that route. It’s too bad that the squirrels keep eating the buds just as they’re opening, that is frustrating. I have the same problem with deer eating the hips just as they’re ripening. I finally wrapped the last of the hips with plastic wrap so they wouldn’t eat those too. If you could find a way to protect the buds so you’d be able to collect pollen from SP I think that would be an easier way to go, maybe not as good of a way but easier.
I understand about developing breeding stock first. That’s pretty much what I’ve been doing, developing plants that are hardy here and have good disease resistance. I’ve made good strides in both areas but none of my plants are close to anything that could be released to the public. It’s like Ralph Moore said; first develop a good plant then put a pretty face on it.
The problem with only using plants that are female fertile is that you’re eliminating quite a few good plants that you could be using. Most of the Explorer roses do not accept pollen well so they have to be used only as pollen parents. They have a lot of good qualities that I like so I have crossed them with good seed parents. The first generations usually are better seed parents but not great and the second generations have been even better. I have seeds from (Belle de Crecy x (Carefree Beauty x John Cabot)) that have over 50% germination rate so far this year.
Could it be that some roses need a heat and drought induced dormancy or a “rest period” for fertility and/or rebloom? I’m really beginning to wonder about this in particular regarding Stanwell Perpetual and some others. I’ve heard mention of winter chill in roses but not studies to back up this theory. And in my garden, roses that supposedly require winter chill to bloom do so without it (this is a very low winter chill area–not good for apples). But then I have a rose that is native to high heat, low rainfall areas that looks crispy and dead during the summer. This is R. minutifolia. My local botanic garden, within walking distance from my home, grows it (Baja California collections), gives no water during the summer. They do not fertilize. Yet it produces huge crops of hips. It greens up rapidly following rain, then starts to bloom.
The R. minutifolia in commerce is from a San Diego collection and sold by Tree of Life Nursery and Suncrest Nurseries. People who have grown it for years say it doesn’t set hips. I bought one of this clone grown by Suncrest and asked them if it had ever, in the years they’d grown it set hips. They said no. Suncrest is in mid to northern California where they don’t get the summers and lack of rain my garden gets. Yet a plant of this clone does set hips here.
So this brings me back to Stanwell Perpetual. I bought this plant from Heirloom in the spring of 2011 as a band. Mine produced hips this year for the first time. Unfortunately they are very attractive to wildlife, so by the time I noticed them disappearing there weren’t many left. The plant is about 6 feet tall at present. I have a low water garden, and although I give some summer water, especially to young, unestablished plants, I don’t give much. The soil where it is planted is pretty depleted (very sandy/rocky). Gets fed maybe once or twice a year with very diluted fish emulsion. Right now it has 2 hips forming as well as a bunch of aborted hips. We are finally getting some winter rain this year. I wonder if it will produce as many hips in 2015 as 2014? Hardy, if I get more mature hips and you want them, just let me know.
Regarding fedtschenkoana. Rebloom is very good here. Produced a big crop of hips in 2013 (which were also quite appealing to birds and squirrels), yet with just as many flowers this year, only 1 hip. What might account for the difference in the numbers of hips produced?
Melissa
Percy Wright’s statement that ‘Ross Rambler’ (Rosa laxa) repeats better than Rosa rugosa is definitely not true. Especially, when compared to ‘Schneezwerg’. He was quite capable of hyperbole when it came to writing about roses he was excited about. For example, his own ‘Hazeldean’ and ‘Ross Rambler’.
In response to Joe’s idea of crossing Rugosas with Rosa laxa, I once had a ‘Hansa’ x Rosa laxa selection. It had semi-double, medium pink flowers. While I only had it for a short time, it didn’t repeat its flowers. But I had it growing in a very warm climate (Zone 8). But perhaps ‘Schneezwerg’ x Rosa laxa would be a better combination to produce progeny having repeat blooming flowers.
In my opinion, the main value Rosa laxa has is developing Climber or Pillar roses for a Zone 3 climate. The evidence likely is its use in the development of the Zone 3 hardy Pillar roses ‘Praire Youth’ and ‘Prairie Dawn’. For this breeding program, I’d like to see Rosa laxa combined with some of the Explorer Rosa kordesii cultivars like ‘William Baffin’ and ‘Henry Kelsey’. And there is also very good potential combining Rosa laxa with Spinosissima cultivars, especially to develop progeny having yellow flowers.
Journal of the Royal Horticultural Society 27: 482-492 (1902/3)
SOME WILD ASIATIC ROSES
Maurice L. de Vilmorin, F.R.H.S.
The Beggeriana, a native of Persia and Turkestan, is not commended by its size, and still less by the odour (a decidedly bad one) of its flower. The undue spreading of its bush is obviated by grafting it on the stock of the Dog Rose. The plant will then bloom from July to the cold days of October. The small, round, red fruit early drops the remains of the calyx, and its appearance gains thereby. The black-fruited variety is curious.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Vilmorin_Asiatic/Vilmorin_Asiatic.html
I am puzzling over R. beggeriana. Schrenk (1841) seemed pretty certain that the plant he was describing was a synstyle. I have found one picture that is supposed to be of this species that does look like a synstyle.
http://luirig.altervista.org/schedenam/fnam.php?taxon=Rosa+beggeriana
Other writers point to the resemblance of R. beggeriana to R. gymnocarpa. A picture of the black-fruited form does have prickles like those of its American relative.
Hurst (1928) wrote that R. cabulica was “usually mislabelled R. Beggeriana in gardens”. The plant he recognized as R. Beggeriana would have been something more akin to R. cinnamomea or R. davurica. I haven’t found a picture of that one.
There are a few things going on that should be considered separately: dormancy, rest, floral initiation, chilling.
Richard Ligon (A True & Exact History of the Island of Barbados, 1657) wrote: “Rose trees we have, but they never bear flowers.” I assume there were no Autumn Damasks on the island. This is presumably a case of a chilling requirement not being satisfied.
“An Expert” (1885) found that by forcing ‘Rose Edouard’ to rest by withholding water, the plant produced better blooms.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ExpertEdouard1885.html
I have also read that greenhouse roses do not require chilling to bloom, but will produce more and better blooms if they get a rest.
Floral initiation often occurs during dormancy, whether natural or imposed. Sometimes the initiation of flower buds is tied to some environmental condition. The strawberry, Fragaria vesca, converts axial buds to floral buds during the short days of Autumn. Other members of the Rosaceae initiate flower buds at other times. Drinkard (1911) reported on some fruit trees, and how he sectioned buds to learn when floral initiation occurred. I would be interested to know when the Foetidas initiate flower buds–in heat? or in cold?
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/DrinkardFruitBud1911.html
It has long puzzled me how ‘Soleil d’Or’ (HP x Persian Yellow) could rebloom so well, while ‘Le Rêve’ and ‘Lawrence Johnston’ (HT x Persian Yellow) do not. It is at least possible that rebloom in HPs, partially derived from the old autumnal Damasks, is of a different character than the perpetual bloom of roses derived from Teas and Chinas.
I don’t know if, or even how it might tie in to the above, but Schoener’s Nutkana can be triggered to “repeat” in this climate by permitting it to set hips at will, permitting them to begin coloring then stripping them from the plant, feeding and watering it. New flowers will often form all over the plant for a second “flush”.
I recall that Paul Barden did a really great writeup of the differences while he was working with The Portland Rose. I wasn’t easily able to Google it just now, but will look some more later, or maybe someone else knows where that is?
I had to think about this for a while before responding with this note:
The Garden 49: 488-489 (June 27, 1896)
PROGRESS IN THE HYBRIDISING OF ROSES.
A paper by the Rt. Hon. Lord Penzance in “The Rosarian’s Year-Book,” 1895.
“As I have mentioned the Hybrid Street Briers I will pause a moment to make known a fact which I only became aware of in this autumn of 1895. It occurred to me to have the hips of the Hybrid Sweet Briers cut off, and I only regret that it did not occur to me earlier in the season. They were already of a bright red colour, and formed very pretty objects, but I thought it would add to the strength and health of the plant to part with them. I certainly was not prepared for the result, for all the plants, with one or two exception, took to blooming freely a second time. During all August and September, and, indeed, until the arrival of the sharp frost in the latter part of October, I had three or four glasses of these blooms on my breakfast table every morning, perfuming the room with the very sweet scent of their flowers. From this experience I conclude that if the flowers are cut off as soon as they fade in summer, and the hips not allowed to form themselves, the autumnal flowering would be still more remarkable and abundant.”
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Penzance1896.html
In the above article I added a note about a similar case involving crabapples.
Penzance’s comment is in two parts. The FACT is that his Hybrid Sweet Briers repeated when he removed the ripe (or nearly ripe) hips. He only ASSUMED that the rebloom would be more abundant if he cut off the flowers before the hips formed. I have not yet found any report from him (or others) that the latter method would be successful.
I can only postulate that the plants stop (or slow) their vegetative growth while the hips are growing. If so, carbohydrates would continue to accumulate because leaves are still functioning and the carbs aren’t being used to support more cane growth. The excess of starches and other carbs incline the plant to bloom, if the tendency is latent. Girdling or ringing can have a similar effect.
Knight Experiments (1823)
"It was before well known to gardeners, that any thing which checked the growth of a fruit tree, hastened the production of fruit.
“On two orange-trees from St. Michael’s, which had never borne fruit, though we had had them many years, we practised decortication, taking off a ring of the bark of half an inch in width. In the following spring, this year, the gardener expressed to me his surprize, that those limbs were literally loaded with blossoms. He had not been in the secret. We pointed out to him the decortication or ringing, or as we say, the “girdling,” and it was found, that while every other part of the tree was without blossoms, those which were operated upon were far too greatly covered with them. In this case we committed a mistake. The orange-tree puts forth only once in a year ordinarily in our climate, or under favourable circumstances, twice. Ringing or girdling should only be executed when the sap is in the greatest possible degree of action. These limbs are not healthy, and we fear will not hold their fruit, but the experiment shewed the principle in its clearest light. The general rule is, to girdle when the tree is in its most rapid state of growth, to make the decortication or ring larger or smaller according to the vigour of the plant, but so little in all cases as to enable the tree to close the wound during the same season. We made a similar experiment on a flowering plant, the beautiful Passiflora Alata, and we threw it by this process into flower, at a season in which it never flowers in the ordinary course of nature, that is, in the month of August. Its usual time of flowering with us, is October and April.”
So, the formation of hips could produce a “check” to the growth of a rose that would stimulate blooming.
I have more examples here:
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/Alternation.html
Scroll down to “Girdling and Grafting”
Karl
Karl, in the Newhall garden, keeping Schoener’s Nutkana dead headed did not result in a continuation of flowering nor in “rebloom”. Only permitting the fruit to set, begin coloring, then removing it all, fertilizing and watering produced later flowers. I had attempted to have it continue by dead heading it, but the plant didn’t cooperate. I accidentally discovered the rebloom “secret” when I wanted to eliminate all the edible “fruit” from the garden to reduce the attraction to the squirrels and rats that year.
Just to keep you updated.
SP can produce healthy OP seedlings. I have got 5 out of my 10 seeds.
Count me as one who is anxious so see what you get.
Update
it turns out my SP seedlings are not so healthy after all. One died, two seem not to grow at all(almost no development of leaves and stem), one has a rather stunted growth and only one grows quite normaly although not really vigorously.