Source of the disputed mentioning of maternal yellow origin

Hi you,

I want to post the source exactly, for the information I posted here:

Encyclopedia of Rose Science

Part one, Page 299, Article: “Species Crosses” of Spethmann / Feuerhahn. Copyright Elsevier 2003.

Not to be too sarcastic - could there be at least two different coded traits for the yellows?

I mean, - hugonis, foetida, or ecae and banksiae - does that all belong to the same genetically coded traits?

That might be an explanation for the confusing info given in Debeners books.

The light yellow might be transferable per pollination, but the deep yellow doesn’t have to be also transfereable like this.

If there would be at least two traits - even in the section spinosissimae - it would be no wonder, to get different explanations.

my own nipponensis x ecae seedling will bloom 2009 or 2010 … so there is enough time to speculate. :slight_smile:

Perhaps its deep yellow, perhaps light yellow, perhaps orange or pink. …

One of them is not really too much. … But better than nothing. :wink:

Greetings from Germany,


Here’s the text [the article is about breeding using species]:

"The primary importance of breeding with species is the introduction of resistance to fungal disease or insect pest into the garden roses. Some successful results are referred to above. But other character traits could also be improved by species crosses. Breeding with R. foetida (R. lutea var. persiana) resulted in yellow rose cultivars for the first time. The other yellow species (R. hugonis, R. ecae, R. primula[/i]) could be included in breeding programmes to improve yellow flower color with winter hardiness.

In roses, yellow flower colour is caused by lipophilic carotenoids of the chromoplasts. These are inherited maternally, therefore only crosses with yellow seed parents are successful. At p. 311.

W. Spethmann, University of Hanover, Germany. His email is online. spethmann at

Well there is the source of the poor information. Spethmann is right about the inheritance of the plastid genome, but … While the plastid genome that gives rise to chloroplasts, amyloplasts, chromoplasts is inherited through the seed parent (there are some exceptions), in other plant species where the genetics of this pathway have been extensively studied there are numerous nuclear encoded genes that are involved in the biochemical pathway that synthesizes the carotenoids. I really doubt that roses are the exception. Anyway, just my two cents, Liz

two cents from germany, joining those thrown by Liz.


I think thats right. …

But, again:

If there would be at least two traits for different kinds of yellows (light and deep ones e.g.)- even in that one section of the spinosissimae - it would be no wonder to me, to get different explanations from different authors.

See you,



Really nobody here with an opinion on different possible genetically and / or perhaps in parts maternal coded traits for different yellows?

Has anyone successfully crossed here with really deep yellow spinosissimas or spinosissima hybrids (and I do not mean the light yellow ones) per pollination?

Perhaps thats how my question should be turned.



For example here the deep yellow is indeed maternal …

Rosa ecae


Maybe I’m missing something, but that yellow does not seem very deep. The seed parent has a stronger yellow. Is that your point? On the other side of things, Hazeldean is a relatively strong yellow arising from a light-colored seed parent. Almost certainly the intense yellow came from the pollen parent or pollen grandparent.


Hi Peter!

These fotos of Helen Knight are not really representative.

I thought a lot of peope do know this shrub.

altaica as a pollen parent has much lighter colour than ecae.



Ups, you mean R15? I do not know that plant, so I can’t tell you something concerning this plant.

Another one.

hey! What do you think now?

Rosa ecae Aitchison

No, Arno, I meant Hazeldean. Its pollen parent is probably either Harison’s Yellow or Persian Yellow. Either way, the pollen parent is darker than R. spin. altaica.

R15-01 is from Golden Showers x Hazeldean.

Yes, Golden Chersonese has a much more vivid color.


Ive tried to purchase GOlden Chersonese many times with little success. It is never available from the few outlets when I need it, lol.

But is it still worth tracking down for breeding? Opinions?


But is it still worth tracking down for breeding? Opinions?

There are very few ecae F1’s. It might help to have it around as you may want to use it with that new seedling of yours for partial backcrossing.

Hi Joan,

let me then again, think of this spectualtion:

It could be the light yellow from the Canary Bird line that is crossed in per Pollen of Golden Chersonese in your crossings.

The deeper ecae yellow would be perhaps possible if one takes ecae as a mother plant.

I will take ecae (and Golden Chersonese) as a mother plant this year, its not a big shrub, the one I have here, but good enough.

By the way, I crossed with Golden Chersonese, too, and have already got 4 Seedlings out of this crossing from last year:

Rosa rugosa ‘alba’ x Golden Chersonese

Not difficult, as you know, rugosa is a good seedparent.

But its a section cross between cinnamomeae and spinosissimae.

It will be very interesting, to see, what colours will derive out of this crossing, - to be honest, thats the only reason, why I did it: I want to know something about the colour-inherities of the possibly different traits of yellows.



Hi Peter!

Sorry I have not much time, but I am looking for Hazeldean in helpmefind at the moment …

The colour of Hazeldean is inbetween, I would say, according to the fotos, - but it seems to be a fading yellow, to light yellow, like in the light yellow trait.

The colour reminds me to xanthina.

Ecae and Golden Chersonese, and also Helen Knight for example - are darker and do not fade much (especially ecae itself).

Difficult to judge … I think we should check these things in our further crossings.

Its a topic that is quite interesting.

And perhaps Feuerhahn is at least partly right, with his sentence about the yellow mama plant.



Here an interesting link from Bob Williams in the other thread for yellow traits … .

Its an article on breeding with gigantea, but at the bottom there are notes (From Paul Barden?)

“Differential pairing of chromosomes does play a role in the reduced fertility of some hybrids, and can greatly reduce the frequency of segregation of characters in the hybrid progeny. That is, if we cross Rosa foetida with a Hybrid Tea, we cannot expect fully fertile, deep yellow Hybrid Teas in the F2.; and it will take even longer to eliminate the susceptibility to blackspot.”

The possibility of differential pairing of chromosomes should play also a big role in Hulthemia and perhaps banksiae crosses.

Wow, this makes it pretty difficult.

Perhaps the best is really to throw with pollen around and think less. :smiley:

Greetings, Arno


“Perhaps the best is really to throw with pollen around and think less”

Right Arno. This is absolutely true. If we only believe what is printed we wouldn’t have many of the breakthroughs we have today.

Hi Robert,

I think its also the sense of this sentence, that Paul & David cited by Ralph Moore: “The rose will find a way.”

And, because the theme “nature of chromosome stabilization in complex hybrids” really fits for me at the moment, I will again read their article on the bracteata hybrids again, this evening. …

But of course, if it comes to serious crossings, I will also again throw pollen around, because this is the kick one needs to keep the motivation going on pushing.

Its not less the problem of knowing too much, that is the challenge, its more the art of forgetting about all that stuff just at the right time. :slight_smile:

Have a nice rest-weekend!


Sorry it should read:

Its less the problem of knowing too much, that is the challenge, its more the art of forgetting about all that stuff just at the right time. :slight_smile: