Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Update on JdL×RK:
So far there have been 6 germinations out of those 14 seeds. Two failed almost immediately. I am noticing that another two of them have tiny, malformed, almost triangular cotyledons, but seem to stay alive nonetheless, and one of them had a very stiff radicle that grew in a sideways spiral for a while before I replanted at an angle to help it finally find “down”. Perhaps this is due to the slightly incompatible genetics of the parents.
Anyway, two of them seem to be ok so far. Here’s how they are looking today:

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Hi @pacificjade,
Just curious about your attempt at putting Easy on the Eyes pollen onto White Roadrunner. Did the hips end up staying on? Any seeds/germinations?
I did end up adding White Roadrunner, it arrived bare root about two months ago. So I’m very interested in any results or advice you may have about it as a parent.

Update:
The JdL×RK seeds have been the only ones to germinate so far. The seeds from the reverse cross didn’t germinate (but that was expected) and neither did Eyes for You ×Scheekoppe, which is more disappointing.
I am going to have to try a LOT harder in 2023.
So, only four seedlings from this experiment. Foliage has barely a hint of texture, like JdL, and they are already getting pretty thorny. Stems are a little thin for my liking though, I will start adding some calmag and silica to their food and exposing them to more of a breeze and see if that helps thicken them up.
The two biggest ones:


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They look promising. Congrats! My attempts last year didn’t produce much. :frowning: 3 or so crossings on Schneezwerg with hulthemia’s failed. Eventually had 2 other flowers that set hips (Schneezwerg x Eye of the Tiger), but only gave me 3 seeds. These haven’t germinated yet. I’m hoping, but chances are little they’ll give me anything I think.

Other crossings on Schneezwerg gave me some seedlings, but they aren’t with Hulthemia’s. I’m still a very firm believer Schneezwerg is a good mother to try to get more Rugosa x “any other rose type” crossings. So I’ll do some new attempts this year. Many more flowers to pollinate with Hulthemia’s and maybe also some other types.

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Thank you @KarelBvn ! I hope your seeds from Schneezwerg×Eye of the Tiger will germinate! If there’s only three of them, it might be worth hanging on to them anyway in case they germinate later in the year… I know it can happen sometimes! It sounds like a very nice cross and I agree Schneezwerg sounds like a good mother for all kinds of experiments!
I wonder if JdL’s seedlings will juvenile bloom or not. Considering JdL is so little rugosa looking, it would be unfortunate if the only thing he inherited from his ancestry in that class was a lack of juvenile bloom! Haha, I will find out, I guess!

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Update:
The four seedlings of Jean de Luxembourg × Raspberry Kiss are still going, although one is far behind the others having germinated much later.

And two of them have buds! Very glad to see juvenile blooms on at least some of these. Please blotch for me? I know they really don’t have any rugosa traits but I’m hoping that the rugosa heritage in them will help them with compatibility later.

Next step: if any of these are fertile, cross them with something closer to both species, then down the road follow Lammerts’ formula (A×B) × (A×C) to recombine it all together.

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One of them bloomed. JdL’s yellow petal base seems to have dominated, confirming what Jim Sproul had noted ages ago about there being some kind of interference with blotch expression. It has strong apricot fragrance like JdL.
All of the seedlings are very healthy. As a test I placed them right next to a mildew infested rose for a few weeks and they got nothing. So although no blotch so far, at least they have health going for them.


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That’s a sublime result! Congratulations. If fertile you could consider a back cross with the Hulthemia parent to get the blotch. They should match up well, being closely related.

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Thank you for your encouraging comment!
Yes I will try what you suggested, but not with her pollen parent, if she is fertile I will try her with something a little closer to the species. Not quite Tigris close, but considering a second generation hybrid like Glorious Babylon Eyes, which is supposed to be a grandchild of the species, if the lineage provided on HMF is correct. For now I will just let her grow a bit and watch for the blooms from her siblings.

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SeasideRooftop, I found brief reference to this formula in Lammerts’ “The Scientific Basis of Rose Breeding”, bit I’m curious if this was contained in a larger work by him that you have read…?

@lee_hull : Unfortunately, I don’t know. My only source for this is the article you mentioned, which I only know of thanks to KarlK’s posts on this forum.

Thank you, and thanks, Karl.

Pretty seedling! In my experience subtle blotches can take 2-3 years to show up. Yes, really! A cooler spring season with an established seedling is most beneficial for showing those very subtle blotches. Best wishes with this one.

Regarding the earlier question about Rugosas, have you tried Ralph Moore’s “Mag Seed”? I have a rugosa mini that I haven’t explored very much, but now you got me to thinking that perhaps it should be crossed with some of the Hulthemias.

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Thank you so much for your kind comment and for sharing your insight, I really appreciate it!
I will be patient with these in case any latent blotchiness develops.
A third one of the four has buds now, so at least there’s some good juvenile bloom in there. Fourth one is still lagging behind.

Thank you for the suggestion of MagSeed! I see that there are a couple of European sellers for that one, if the HMF “Buy From” page is up to date. I will try contacting Bierkreek for that one. Looking forward to trying it next year!
This month I have been dumping hulthemia hybrid pollen on JdL again, as well as on White Roadrunner, Snow Pavement, Will Alderman, Mont Blanc and Souvenir de Yeddo. I hope at least some of them will give results in spite of all the ploidy and compatibility issues. So far other than with JdL, hips started to swell but then dropped a few weeks in, which is frustrating, but the season isn’t over yet so I’ll keep trying!

check for midge I don’t see any buds on the seedlings

A note about this year’s attempts in this category.
I made countless pollinations in spring and early summer, and have very little to show for it.
What follows is what remained after many hips aborted along the way, not the full range or number of crosses I attempted.
Will Alderman × Orienta Aylin :
2 hips, almost fully colored but began to shrivel and stem started to brown, so harvested day 86. Float test : 42 sinkers, 5 floaters.
Mont Blanc × Eyes for You:
2 hips, woke this morning to find them shriveling also at 85 days. Harvested : 8 seeds only! All floaters. :frowning:
I’m not sure what happened: the heat has come down, the plants are looking healthy. Perhaps they just gave up due to incompatibility. 85 days is frustrating, just a week shy of what I would have thought was safe. I hope a few seeds might still be viable.
I still have hips of:
Jean de Luxembourg × Glorious Babylon Eyes,
Snow Pavement × Eyes for You
Snow Pavement × Glorious Babylon Eyes
Alissar PoP × Snow Pavement.
Hoping some of those will hold on to their hips till the end.

Plant them all. Don’t worry about floaters. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Why run the risk of tossing a potentially successful seed?

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Thank you Roseseek, I will! I read the float test doesn’t really apply to rugosa hybrids, but I always do it anyway.
They are all soaking in calcium nitrate solution right now, floaters included!

Also note rugosa/near rugosa hybrids tend to ripen faster than most other roses. If they were already almost fully coloured then they should be fine.

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Thanks Plazbo! That does give me some hope, although the Mont Blanc hips were a lot less colored than Will Alderman’s. Fingers crossed.

Sorry if this is all very obvious to you experienced hybridizers, but I’m noticing what seems to be a big correlation between fertility and temperature. Both Will Alderman and Mont Blanc only accepted pollen at the beginning of spring, and refused or aborted any further attempts once the temperatures rose above 30°c. Snow Pavement did the opposite, refusing all pollen in spring but suddenly setting lots of hips in the midsummer heat.
I’m a little bummed about White Roadrunner, it has refused to set any hips at all here, not even OP. I see Vissers did get Mariage Parfait from it as a seed parent, so perhaps it will become more fertile as it matures, or maybe it’s a climate thing too. I’ll try it as a pollen parent next spring if I can identify a blotched rose with good germination rates.
Alissar PoP is the only hulthemia hybrid I used this year as a seed parent in this category, but I am letting Orienta Aylin and Glorious Babylon Eyes set a couple of OP hips just to see how they germinate, and hopefully use them next year.