I am interested in experimenting with modern x rugosa and rugosa x modern crosses with the goal of getting more modern flower form and colors on bushy shrubby plants with very rugose foliage.
Three questions, as I am a novice please bear with me.
First does using the Rugosa as the seed parent tend to pass on more Rugosa characteristics vs the opposite cross?
Second are the suggestions for a good rugosa parent? Modern floribundas or shrub roses for the cross?
Finally am I on a foo’s errand?
Thank you in advance
Tim
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Rugosas loathe my climate, so I have no personal experience, but I honestly feel 90% of us are on fool’s quests playing the rose-genetics-lotto… The dreaming and speculating inevitably beat the heck out of the actual results for me.
Having said that, I suppose you have tried the advance search options on hmf. (Not sure if one can say hybrid rugosa with a HT parent per se, but there are many of them.)
My impression is floral attributes may be more persistent than foliage in the first generations, but selective breeding might overcome that.
(Why I am still typing after conceding I don’t know what I am talking about I don’t know…)
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That depends upon your end goal. If it’s simply to create something attractive to your eye and selected to be healthy in your garden, you may succeed. If it’s in hopes of creating something worth growing in other climates, you may find other goals easier to accomplish. Many of the Hybrid Rugosas already introduced suffer chronic fungal issues in many climates other than, perhaps, the ones in which they were selected. If you’re lucky, you may generate results possessing sufficient Arctic hardiness to endure your climate with foliage sufficiently healthy to remain resistant for the duration of your growing season. For the most part, H. Rugosas don’t do well in long-season areas with black spot and rust being some of the worst of their susceptibilities.
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It’s telling that there are so very few Hybrid Rugosas at all, let alone a few that are worth growing. The fact that even Ralph Moore could do no better than ‘Linda Campbell’ says a great deal. Yes, it’s a beautiful rose if you grow it in SoCal, but in my climate, it was crippled by disease.
Then there’s the sterility issue: you may get offspring from a Rugosa/Hybrid Tea type cross relatively easily, but the odds of any of them bering sufficiently fertile to move beyond F1 is very slim. I tried a variety of crosses with Rugosa types over the years and never got anything worth keeping. Yes, there are a dozen or so very sturdy Rugosa hybrids in the old test garden that do well to this day, but all are single or semi-double pink/magenta blooms on shrubs that bloom only sparingly after May. The species has a lot of genetic gravity.
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The only rugosa I have (suffers miserably and nearly dies in August) is Moje Hammarburg. I have seeds from it: M.H. x Rosa setigera–a planned cross. I am not optimistic about its survival in Central Texas, but will blame Geschwind for the inspiration…
I gather e.g. “Himmelsauge” was a dead end though… [Edited to note that I just read the rose in commerce as Himmelsauge is more likely Russelliana, and H. probably is no more. <sigh>]
(I love the look of the hybrid setigeras, and acquired mine thinking it might also contribute a modicum of RRD resistance to any lines derived from it.)
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Only rose variety in my garden soil that whispered stay away from me for breeding - excluding tenders. Hit and miss for germination or healthy / foliage.
My soil has a strong influence from Clay from Glacial Lake Agassiz. Leads to 2 inch wide desiccation cracks in late August especially when a main city water supply feeder line fails (rationing). This high clay content l am also led to believe leads to poor mg/iron uptake - leads to chlorosis rugosa bushes scattered here and there ( yellow sick looking leaves) in garden.
But not all rugosa hybrids, just ones close in form to rugosa pheno type characteristics (leaves canes) are most susceptible. Chucked a few. Mind you R primula has same issue. Chucking in litres of diluted chelated iron on it helps- rugosa means spray right on soil not on leaves.
The Hunter no anemia problem and handles winter by strong regrowth (cane freeze damage) 15+ years and a favourite - has odd genetics and created by a Brit nurseryman. A personal favourite as dense first bloom ( semi double) and reblooms well in a long hot summer. Leaves color crap out by end of summer. Crossings failed to germinate.
Color of Erskine’s Caroyal a killer for me as with one of the la Haies (sic). No crossing successes except one that failed “healthy test”.
Used Caroyal on a number of crossings last season and before. Also tried crossing mossman and mme de la roche lambert, with F1s rugosas but failed to germinate and / or diseased seedlings.
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Regardless of what your aesthetic goals are, as someone who is now entering my 4th year of crossing rugosas with moderns, I would suggest using the rugosa as the seed parent.
Always try both ways, but there are just way more seeds and shorter hip ripening time if you use the rugosa as the mother.
Whatever you do, rugosity of foliage tends to disappear or be greatly lessened in the first generation. You’ll have to breed it back in later, if you get a fertile seedling, which is far from guaranteed. The other comments in this thread are all true as well.
So arm yourself with patience, but best of luck to you!
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The one Hybrid Rugosa I would seriously consider for breeding purposes is ‘Will Alderman’. I have an open pollinated ‘Will Alderman’ (F2) seedling that is quite pretty, extremely healthy and blooms on and off all season. I have done a few crosses with it and found it works well, but I never really explored it in depth. I think ‘Will Alderman’ has some real potential for breeding more Rugosa types.
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I agree. Will alderman has been working for me in the hybridizations I have been doing. Of course, one will have to bear in mind that it is diploid. So I have mostly crossed with other diploids. I have also been trying to do doubling at the cotyledon stage (using oryzalin), to overcome the “F1 problem” when crossing with tetraploids - as mentioned by others. Efforts are ongoing. i am not sure that I am there, yet. In our Scandinavian climate Will Alderman is a healthy and useful plant in itself, flowering early and continuing throughout the season.
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Paul is there a commercial source for will alderman?
Not anymore, as far as I know. So many of these less common varieties have vanished from commerce in the past twenty years. Once upon a time you could easily buy varieties like ‘Mme. Hardy’ from one of a dozen sources, but it’s pretty much gone from nursery listings now, only occasionally appearing at places like High Country or Roses Unlimited. Many, many others have vanished over the years.
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Paul thanks for the your experience info on Will.
I acquired one about 10 years ago from the west coast and it’s been sitting in back cold gardens. Been ignoring it. Have to give it a try.
Vendor no longer in business.
Mme Hardy shown “as call” on Cornhill Roses site - use to export to States - have no idea if subject to a new big import duty.
Still have magenta R d la Haie (2) on waiting from last year and a check if they have Wil.
Use to carry lots of heritage unlisted Canadian in the back 40 unless plowed under. Even Yaktan (American Nils Hanse(o)n). Got my Indian Heads and Isabelle S. via call - not on site.
Rose Fire still lists Will Alderman under its rugosas, although it doesn’t appear to be currently available.
Mark
You must consider that rugosas are diploids, so if you cross to modern hybrids, you may run into all the difficulties connected with interploidy crosses, as most modern roses are tetraploids. I agree with previous comments: if you somehow get a hybrid it would be difficult to move beyond F1 because of its fertility problems. I would suggest to concentrate not only on getting a hybrid, but rather on getting a fertile hybrid. And again, I agree to previous notes to use rugosas as a seed parent, however in that case the germination and early embryo survival are rather low, so you might end up with really many crosses to get a reliable statistics. I would start with at least 100 hips of harvest. Using rugosas as a pollen parent is bit tricky, first you have to check the pollen fertility of your candidate at least on helpmefind, then you must find a reliable seed parent. With interploidy issue it may be difficult; even a very fertile seed parents may not ‘take’ or will have 1-2 seeds per hip, so again, here you may also need a big number of crosses.
I don’t think ploidy alone is responsible for infertility problems when using Rugosas in breeding. There are plenty of fertile triploids that have been used in breeding — Out of Yesteryear immediately comes to mind; a highly fertile triploid.
Ralph Moore worked on the Rugosa problem for many years, with mixed results. Linda Campbell came from Anytime X Rugosa Magnifica, and I can find no documentation for the ploidy of either. I can imagine that both may be diploid, but who knows if Anytime is or not, given that there are several tetraploids in its pedigree. Anytime could easily be one of those fertile triploids. (Kim, do you know?)
Anyway, Linda Campbell has no known offspring, likely due to the fact that it’s (presumably) sterile. However, its sister seedling “MagSeed” is quite fertile — I know because I used it many years ago and I still have several of its offspring in my test garden. I don’t know its ploidy either. If you can find “MagSeed” — also available in Europe under the name ‘Red Rugostar’ — I would suggest working with that cultivar. I think it has enormous potential yet to be unlocked by breeders.
At any rate, I’m not convinced that infertility issues that frequently arise when making first generation Rugosa hybrids is due to ploidy mismatch alone. Rugosas are so very different from much of the rest of the genus that there are likely other genetic mismatch problems at play. Ralph had the same problems with R. bracteata — it took a lot of tries to get Muriel, and even then, Muriel is barely fertile (pollen only, I believe) even though it is a known tetraploid.
I’ve long felt Anytime was highly likely a fertile triploid, @paulbarden . It seemed to be able to cross with anything successfully, one of those I’ve always said “can be pollinated with dirt”. I know it wasn’t terribly black spot resistant but I would LOVE to find it again as I now have ideas how to use it. Unfortunately, it seems to have disappeared. So, I’ve been collecting its nearest relatives as I’ve been able to find them.
I don’t think I ever grew ‘Anytime’, but I did have ‘New Penny’ for years — until it was killed in the 2015 freeze. A shame, I wish I had it still.
I wish SOMEONE had New Penny. It isn’t listed as being in the San Jose Heritage and not even Freedom Gardens has it, nor Anytime listed, even under “Custom Propagation”.
I went out into the “garden” this afternoon and hacked at the blackberries for an hour, and eventually isolated Magseed from the weeds and canes, and put a deer barrier around it. Hopefully it will have a chance to build up some strength again this year, and I will have access to its pollen. I think it has some tricks up its sleeve that we haven’t even considered yet.
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generally agree that there’s likely something more to the genetic mismatch.
Therese Bugnet and Roseraie de l’Hay I have had both for a while and both have been very reluctant seed setters. Added Sarah Van Fleet (I know, not well liked because of issues) and TB has gone from setting like 4 hips to >70% of flowers to hips, RdlH went from a couple hips here and there to ~50%.
I have a lot of rugosa’s, several seed grown woodsii, blanda, etc, lots of other species, moderns, etc so there’s been a lot of opportunity and variety for TB and RdlH to set seed in the past but they consistently did pretty low numbers. The addition of SVF potentially points towards an acceptable genetic combo, at least for seed production….will see about germination and if seedlings in the next few months.
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