Hi Adam!
In former posts I always wrote Geetings from Germany! .
But as I noticed, in the US forums all the guys write often only half sentences (even when they want to know something) and lol and something like that. …
So I wrote instead Grx!
Its a living reminiscence to the outbreak of lazyness. LOL!
& Grx!
Arno
Greeting not Geetings i meant … .
The subject of inheritance is really interesting. Beneath dominance and recessivity there is a lot other stuff … .
Quantitative trait loci (QTL’s), codominance, maternal effects (also the chloroplasts are always from the motherplant, additionally the whole “starter kit” of substances in the cell plasma of the egg cell, when it starts out to divide and form anembryo).
In my opinion the best thing is to do crossings and then whatch closely at the outcome … perhaps some riddles of the complex theme of inheritance can be solved like this.
Another example of a ohenomenon in inheritance is the dwarf growth I spottet in multiflora type selfings, should be a problem in the gibberellic acid pathway, perhaps due to gene dosis effects etc. … Look at Baby Faraux and Veilchenblau for example: for me Baby Faraux is simply such a selfing and such a dwarf form.
not “ohenomenon”, but phenomenon.
The leafs of the parents (P) and the F1 Generation. Upper side:
And the reverse sides:
Dear Arno,
Thank you for those interesting suggestions. I love the Alba clan of roses for their fragrance, hardiness and good health. Another fun thing to try next year!
Aren’t many of the Albas hexaploid? Would crossing a hexaploid Alba with diploid R. xanthina give me a tetraploid, or does the direction of the cross matter? I’m thinking of that Caninae thing where the pollen just contributes two chromosomes to a cross.
Hi Betsy!
I forgot to think loud about that: The alba section does have the odd egg and pollen genetics.
So crossings with diploids will work but its a bit luck within it, if something useful is the outcome.
In theory this isn’t solvable in my opinion. Its too complex as albas are hybrids with canina influence and as roses are crazy enozgh to find ways to do genetics no one ever has thought about. …
I tried R x alba 'maxima’x Rosa rugosa var. ‘alba’ and also R x alba ‘semiplena’ x Rosa rugosa var. ‘alba’ in 2007 and do now have some weaker seedlings out of that cross (doesn’t fit very good, but they are still alive and will hopefully flower next season).
It seems that it should be also good to cross with tetraploids, perhaps George Vancouver if you want resistancy and remontancy in later generations - or if you want to have the the yellows in, perhaps with a yellow tetraploid rose that is known or suggested to pass it via pollen … .
Perhaps Easy does it from Harkness or the old Friesia or from the newer ones Solero from Kordes are an Idea.
Tetraploid yellows as a wild species form is difficult to find, I think, perhaps someone knows one besides foetida.
Grx!
Arno
I tell you what I would do with Rosa x alba if it would flower now and if I would have the pollen:
Rosa x alba X Rosa beggeriana
Rosa x alba X Rosa fedtschenkoana
;.)
Thanks for the answer Arno. While we in america tend to speak English it is not very proper or correct English especially compared to say the English. It gets even worst when we write as a rule of thumb. I know when I write things I often assume people know what I am talking about and sometimes that assumption proves to be wrong when I get an answer back.
Nice photo comparing the leaves. You can certainly see the influence of rugosa on the seedling. It seems the other parent contributions was to make the leaf thinner and wiping out some of the texture of the leaf.
It seems the other parent contributions was to make the leaf thinner and wiping out some of the texture of the leaf.
Thats completely right Adam!
And what makes me wonder while comparing that with Jinks fotos is: here some characteristics of spontaneous tetraploidy seem to occur as the leaflets are blown up like an old green plastic bag! (Not only nice … .)
I don’t really think that it really occured here but it looks as if it did in some way. …
At least the leaflets seem to be too broad to be part of the normal spectrum of inherited traits.
Perhaps I should cross it also with tetraploids next year to test this opportunity.
Grx!
Arno
You might consider crossing it with a spinossima or something on that lines.
Congratulations Arno it is a beautiful hybrid!
Today I did
Rosa rugosa ‘alba’ x Rosa ecae (Pollen from the freezer)
and
Rosa rugosa ‘rubra’ x Rosa ecae (Pollen from the freezer)
and
Rosa rugosa ‘pale pink’ x Rosa ecae (Pollen from the freezer)
and
Stanwell perpetual x Rosa ecae (Pollen from the freezer)
and
Petit Papillon x Rosa ecae (Pollen from the freezer)
The latter is an unknown but very good and healthy variety from the German breeder Weihrauch.
If the ecae pollen is still alive we should get some seeds.
Grx!
Arno
Hi Adam & George!
Thank you and thanks for the suggestions!
Perhaps next year some crossings of
(Rosa rugosa alba x Golden Chersonese) x Stanwell perpetual
or vice versa would make sense. Or with Golden wings.
Grx!
Arno
Have you thought of using the rugosa Moore used for Topaz Jewel, which is Belle Poitevine. I love the R. rugosa alba idea the best personally, but maybe the hybrid Moore used has stronger potential for retaining yellow. Another way to maybe work this out would be to layer the diploid persian briar types and diploid rugosa types. So, it would be like a layered line breed where you can choose superior traits “up” each generation.
Anyways… just thoughts
I’m impressed! Kudos.
Paul
Hi Jadae!
I tried to find an explicit advantage of using Belle Poitevine - but from literature I can’t make any decision. Its one of such roses one must first see for realand compare, to have anopinion about it.
Another way to maybe work this out would be to layer the diploid persian briar types and diploid rugosa types. So, it would be like a layered line breed where you can choose superior traits “up” each generation.
Puh, sorry I am not sure if I have understood this - do you mean partly backcrosses with types in the breeding line before?
Grx!
Arno
Hi Paul!
Its really an honour to impress you for a moment!
I like a lot of your hybrids that I have seen - and also your rdrop pages have been an important finding for me to get inspired and mix up science and art.
But also the comments here in the forum are often highlights.
Its a good moment to thank you for what you are doing for amateurs and rose lovers interests concerning the whole rose theme in a very broad manner.
To this topic here: I think there is much work to do from this starting point, its more like a question than an answer for some questions.
This flower looks to me as if it wants to say: “Are you sure? - And now? - So what?”[/i]
But meanwhile I know “what” and I chose a few crossing lines for next year - and if no sybling flowers for F2 crossings (which are simply a must, I think), then the game first goes on via these further odd ways. …
I think one main goal from here should really be to play with that strange colour, unimportant if called yellow, salmon or orange or dirty white - because it might perhaps be a starting point for further unseen odd colours. Its a colour “on the edge” it seems. …
Grx!
Arno
Arno,
Thanks for getting the leaf shots up. It’s interesting to see how different the two batches of seedlings are considering the siblings are quite alike and that we made the same cross, perhaps we have different selections of rugosa alba.
I was surprised at just how much bigger the leaflets on your seedling are. I could tell they were larger than on mine but I assumed they would be at least a little smaller than Rugosa. It’ll be interesting to see if the flowers on mine are closer to Golden Chersonese or more rugosa like yours.
Looking forward to seeing how these progress.
Among 2009 seedlings I have a few dozens rugosa hybrids x mixed pimpinellifolae pollen.
All or most flowered this spring. Very early. Color from white to yellow and the yellow + pink color you got. Plant habit and leaves are very very pimpinellifoliae like, usually one size up somehow condensed and stiffer if retaining high branching and spreading growth. Good health so far. Little if any reccurence.
If not all that glossy foliaged, not unlike your better growing seedling.
All female sterile so far. Pollen was used.