Hi Pierre. That sounds great also! What pimpinellifoliae selections did you mix together for pollen?
By layering I basically mean multiple layers of closely related crosses, which would be similar to line-breeding.
For example,
[ x diploid rugosa cultivar x diploid yellow cultivar]
So, each cross forward is bringing up better, stronger desired qualities through selection, which could potentially increase the yellow tones without losing repeat bloom and desired foliage. If something like this is done, it could theoretically be possible to then take that product and apply it how one sees fit to expand this work elsewhere.
That make me remember I have one strong pink seedling from rugosa hybrid x Mrs Coville.
George
I grow some spinosissimas like the earlier noted and Double Yellow and diploids including Canary Bird, Golden Chersonese, Hugonis, Pteragonis and several sericeas.A strong china sdg x Canary Bird hybrid of mine is included in the mix. I collect pollen daily and use it the following day or two.
Jadae
I look for some female fertility for the semi sib crosses you describe. I did a lot of diploid rugosa hybrids x diploid or tetraploid yellow cultivar and to date there is no female fertility…
Ok Pierre, that’s really interesting.
Hi Jinks!
you named it: for me its also a chance to get deeper insihgight on that cross. And as we can see in the postings here, its a really good idea to show some efforts to the informed people, - it makes fun and gives perhaps also new ideas.
Grx!
Arno
Jadae, thanks, now I understood what you meant and thats something I had no name for but what I have seen eg for Rhapsody in Blue breeding line and I started with some seedlings crosses this year, folowing those thoughts. The years before I was always getting a fundament for such crosses (and I still have to do much in this area of thoghts at the bottom of crossing lines, I think), but now these tools are getting more important for me over the next years!
good to have it in this clear formulated form; as Pierre says, for species crossings always the fertility plays the main role as a limiting factor for such steps … .
Perhaps thats not that important if one does simply bigger amounts. I have got one banksiae hybrid here, and it took over 120 crosses to get at least a few (small) hips.
Thats infertility, but who cares.
Grx!
Arno
Hi Pierre!
Thank you very much for your good input!
So it seems there are for sure more people outside, doing such crossings, and its only a question of time that some nice things will occur this way.
But now I have to ask you: The most interesting thing for me is the following question (as discussed above in this thread): is it possible to cross in real DEEP yellow via pollen parent?
Mama ____ x _____Papa:
No yellow x Deep yellow
What are your thoghts and guesses ontha important practical topic?
I am really looking forward if you have an answer right from the desk of an experienced rose hybridizer!
Grx!
Arno
How well does Rosa wichurana hold onto diploid yellow briar types? It sounds like a thorny nightmare but it could have potential when later mixed with rugosa.
That sounds like a fabulous cross to try out, Michael!
I never myself got deep yellow from: No yellow x Deep yellow.
Only once from paler yellow Arethusa x deep yellow HT.
No yellow x Deep yellow to date gave me more or less softer than deeper parent color.
However there are many really saturated yellows F1 from foetida: i.e. Le Reve or Star of Persia to name those I grow/grew.
That foetida has 2n pollen may be decisive.
In most cases there is dilution and selfing or sib or back crosses are to be considered to regain saturation.
Hopefully seedling aging there will be some female fertility.
Golden Chersonese stuck on Temple Bells for me which is a wichurana hybrid. Seedlings have not yet germinated though.
Hi Pierre!
That is great news, I think! (So one should take the deeper yellows as mother plants, which I will again do enforced in the coming season.) It might be another hint, if it seems so difficult if not impossible to get deeper yellows solely via pollen parents, for you also!
Arethusa does not have a confirmed ancestory line, unfortunately … . So we can’t see for sure if its pale colouring is a fading synstylae or china influence together with an incrossing of perhaps any foetida descendants as deep yellow mother plants, what lead really to Arethusa. Or if the deep yellow in your crossing with Arethusa really came from your pollen partner and is a falsification of my thoughts about yellows - or only a mor or less rare quantitative effect (on one end of the bell curve of more or less added factors for pale yellows) … .
The other thing here is: yes, there could exist several QTL’s (Quantitative trait loci) for yellows of the paler yellows trait.
I think that QTL’s could be possibly responsible for such different shades of very pale to deeper but still pale yellow in the offspring; and additionally there might be the different deeper yellow trait from the maternally inherited chromoplast yellows.
That trait might also be modulated per biochemistry (mainly enzymes) and ph effects in the cells themselves.
So the here postulated at least two different traits might even overlap in their expressions of yellows.
The question is only: is this all what lurks in the background, or are there further possibilities.
And how does that other yellow trait - sometimes mentioned in literature - fit in here, that could be inherited monogenetic dominant as described for yellow in Roses by some scientists before.
Have they really seen something different or where they just fooled by misunderstood maternally inheritance in combination, with other (perhaps dominant) fading effects … ?
I’ll do motherplant crossings with deep yellows next year, I am sure some of you, too. So perhaps we will know more in a few years … .
Grx!
Arno
Hi Arno
The different paler yellow seedlings pollen I got from good compact architecture, strong and reccurent hybrid rugosa mothers will be mixed and put back on other hybrid rugosa mothers as I do not want to add more microphyllae or HT genes.
So semi back cross to the non yellow parent in order to regain female fertility and maintain good characteristics or find some different ones.
While continuing to put all pollen of yellow vars and sp on hybrid rugosa mothers still looking for elusive female fertility.
Hi Pierre!
I do understand. For me the F1 to F2 fertility is also a problem in many cases.
But for my most important crosses, so far i am still stuck mainly in these F1 steps . …
There are exceptions.
My Rosa rugosa f. alba x Rosa beggeriana F1 to F2 syblings crossings where successful for about 1/5 hips.
I have got lots of seeds. They are of pretty good fertility among each other!
So I can perhaps improve remontancy and flower beauty of that crossing line. …
I would like big single flowers in white!
Perhaps its really a trial and error game and of course a game of choosing the right parents (not too far away in phylogeny), too, to get fertile descendants.
I think also doubling the chromosomes chemically should be an option, if one is at a point where one has really got a brilliant F1 hybrid seedling, that is infertile. …
Thats another challenge if this way is chosen then. …
The bottle neck problem might also be overhelmed by other tricks, I will try my own ideas that where helpful for the F1 crossings in Sosa stellata var. mirifica also for F2 crossings with nearly infertile specimen, too, in the next season. Temperature plays a role, perhaps also for hybrids.
In any case I think its easier to get deep yellows via the mother plants. I will try this way even more than this year, in 2011.
Grx!
Arno
It is a good thing we do not follow the same path as there are in infinite number of and as rose breeding behaviour is not so predictible.
A surprise I got years ago is that crossing some larger growing species i.e. bracteata one can get unexpected improved plant compactness. Same for other features be it for better or not.
As covered in another thread one can get sibcrossed F2 seeds just gathering OP seeds from diploid F1 seedlings grown close without too many compatible other vars nearby.
I think sometimes a lot of the really strong yellow color is converted to fragrance in certain roses. It seems some highly fragrant roses have a yellow undertone when they start out. Also very few really small flowered bright yellow roses are fragrant, at least I can not think of one off the top of my head. Also a lot of the mauve and lilacs are really fragrant plus they tend to have strong yellows in their backgrounds; this could be a just coincidence.
I think there is partial truth to it, Adam.
Hi Adam & Jadae!
Yes, thats one problem with some hybrids that are crossed togehter with deep yellow flowering roses. The possible variations are for sure not only happening in shades and a spectrum of different colour variations, the additional dimension always is that odour substances; its the same metabolic fundament for both aspects of a flower. So if one wants to know more on heredity of aspects in one part (e.g. flower colouring) one should try to get only very few influence by the other possible part of expression of the participating metabolism fundaments.
This is one reason for me only taking wild species or near wild species specimen for these tests on coulour heredity.
I try to take not synstylae roses, as they are known to whipe out the carotinoides by modulating them into odour substances.
Others will do that as well. The spinosissima section and - perhaps (at least as far as I think) - the cinnamomea section could be a good fundament for such heredity testings.
I am curious about the outcomes over the next years; It will be great fun if at least some parts of our thoughts here might turn out to be true.
And perhaps again not everything will be like we expected it to come. …
We’ll see
Grx!
Arno
what nurseries sell canary bird rosa ecae?
Canary Bird:
Rosa ecae:
Golden Chersonese:
Helen Knight:
Grx!
Arno