And a shot of the leaves.
The spindly seedling is on the left, rugosa in the middle and the stronger one on the right. 
Wow! Very good!
Now I am convinced, that these works here will be just very interesting for the future of crossing with such yellows in species crossings and species hybrids crossings.
Your leaflets are really a bit smaller, I will do the same foto together with a mothers plants compound leaf tomorrow (now its already night here). …
Good would be a scale within such a foto, - like sth. in cm or so … .
My other seedlings are still too small for such a comparison.
But the one that already flowered will be added here the same way.
So we already got a comparison of three of them … .
Interesting, that the glossieness and the kind of green is different … .
I would not have thought that this is the case here, because the genetics for glossieness should react like a F1 hybrid crossing of species. But: The genes for glossieness are in no one of the ancestors of Golden Chersonese, but they are present in Rosa rugosa alba.
For diploids that should give an genetically Aa inheritance for that trait if its monogenetic … what means if its recessive no F1 hybrid should show glossy leafs and if its dominant all F1 Hybrids should show glossy leafs — obviously it could be of other nature than that, perhaps polygenetic. Thats realy a bit surprising to me. 
Grx!
Arno
Hi Arno,
I meant the polyantha from the 1900s 
I can see the persian briar influence in the photos. Its kind of nice.
Ciao!
Hi Jadae!
If you are not kidding, than its a rose with apricot colouring like in some tea roses like Lady Hillingdon, which is also very healthy here (got the climbing sport and got already seedlings from it with Climbing Peace and with Treasure Trove).
Its a trait of different yellow that is transferable via pollen as far as I know.
Perhaps this colour is of origin of tea rose x banksiae hybrids. I alsways wondered, where this trait stems from … .
Also Buff Beauty shows it … . And Mademoiselle Fransiska Kr
Oh, its definitely derived from tea roses. The copper-red burnish is unmistakable from the yellows descendants derived from Persia, which tend to belnd in a totally different pattern. Rosa banksia lutescens is no doubt not pure banksia, lol.
The problem with this line is usually mildew =( Theyre otherwise beautiful roses. Obviously, cold hardiness is a factor below USDA zone 7.
“If the molecules (which all of them are carotinoide derivates) that are responsible for the colouring are produced by chromoplasts (bacteria-like organells with own DNA) in the cell plasma, than that kind of trait - and its whole spectrum of blends and variations - will be inherited only maternally!”
I never even considered that.I have to admit that I never thought of that. I would have to believe that after reading this statement that at very least I could see it playing a small role in coloring.
So I guess their is an easy answer out there. Does anybody know of a strong yellow that comes down to us from not the maternal line but the male (We must assume the parentage is right, for many of the early hybrids it was a educated guess)?
Another question does anybody else read their answers and think to themselves “Man I am such a nerd” it just happened to me and it is not the first time:)
Don’t have time to detail the biochemistry here and now, but I do know that the actual number of genes carried in the plastid and mitochondrion is very small. There may be regulatory systems that we don’t understand yet, but most genes of proteins that end up in plastids and mitos, are encoded in nuclei. They do have to cooperate within the plastid, so in some cases there is a maternal effect. Corn breeders use to call it a cytoplasm effect, such as the infamous male sterility that made some maize susceptible to Southern blight.
With so many plant genomes sequenced, we can identify all the maternally inherited classical genes. Maybe there are still some small RNA regulators out there to be found in mitos and plastids. My next google project.
Perhaps Don holeman can comment on the color inheritance.
Hi!
Have got only short time but I modified a wiki picture to show some hot spots for colour inheritancy in plant cells:
Chloroplasts here also do stand for chromoplasts (both are plastides).
Imagine now this is a forming egg cell or pollen:
Only the info of the nucleus is transferable via pollen, which is lacking the cytoplasma.
So the cytoplasmatic factors should be normaly transferable only maternally!
Here also should be added epigenetic topics as RNA with modifying effects on the DNA Translation patterns of the latter developing embryo. …
If factors (genes for enzymes e.g. or RNA) out of the forming chemistry of the carotinoides are located in the plastides or in the cytoplasma, they will be only transferred maternally and so does the colour.
If these factors are located in the nucleus - and nothing lacks, what is only transferrable maternally for building the carotinoides - than the effect is also transferable paternally, a mendelian form.
Special cases could occur if the machinery is partly founded in the nucleus and partly in the organells / cytoplasma / vacuole. … Also interferrence of parts of different biochemistry settings for that machinery in hybrid plants with scattered DNA origin would be thinkable.
Then only parts of the machinery could be transferable or others could be blocked or modified in expression - and colour changes could occur as an outcome. (- Possibly something like this is the reason for the fast fading apricot colourings as we discussed here for tea roses, etc. …)
By the way I found an old posting on that topic, where I cited the encyclopedia of rose sciences on maternally inheritancy of deep yellow, two years ago.
http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=15620#15747
Grx!
Arno
Link: www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=15620#15747
So, again: these Rosa rugosa alba x Golden Chersonese crossings are obviously a good way to learn more about the background of colour inheritance … either mainly dominated by nucleus or by plastides / cytoplasm / vacuole.
Grx!
Arno
There is one example of paternally inherited strong yellow that comes to mind, and that’s Hazeldean.
HMF threw up: Hidcote Yellow, Le R
Hi Jinks!
If we belive the lineage tree you are right.
But there is additionaly a special background for this situation, as these are crosses solely located in the spinosissima section, so - perhaps the plastides are already there in Rosa spinosissima var. altaica (a creamy type of flower colour) and only some information from the nucleus genes of Harrisons yellow (-> foetida) is needed to play arole of something like “the light button” for the plastide genes that are involved in producing carotinoides for the petal cell.
After all thoughts I am sure I will mainly believe things that I have done myself or that I am told by other freaks that are keen on the truth like me. ))
But - a good example, what you mentioned there; perhaps you are right.
You say: “The only way to be sure is to make crosses with R ecae pollen on other diploids and see if any strong yellow seedlings show up, (…)”
Thats true. And I have got still pollen in the freezer. Hmn. Some polyanthas are flowering at the moment. Their seeds will ripen very fast, as I know.
I will have a try these days, I think! =)
Grx!
Arno
PS: My R. acicularis nipponensis x R. ecae seedling died unfortunately … . Otherwise I would perhaps even know more now.
Bare in mind that anything musk scented or derived from the Synstylae section will likely have carotene derived fragrances and will cause rapid fading of the yellow colour. Cinnamomae section roses may be a better choice of seed parent, or perhaps something china based like Rouletii.
I forgot to mention that not all of the roses I listed are crosses in the spinosissima section.
Hidcote Yellow is:
Madame Eug
Arno, congratulation to your both Rugosa hybrids.
I will study the whole story written here later, but can say that your ‘Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese’-Lady looks great.
Will not wonder, if you have still some other ‘exotic birds’ in preparation
cheers
Bernhard
I HOPE you are right! 
I am only not that sure if the infos for the directions of the ancestory are right.
If they are, then we will perhaps see also deep yellows in our seedlings, you are right.
(Because also the strong yellow from Rosa ecae is out of the same section as foetida (as you’ve also mentioned above).)
It would be very shocking if a good yellow comes out; I go & count the still living seedlings, I even don’t know how much already germinatet at all (some died back).
Grx!
Arno
PS: You wrote “Cinnamomae section roses may be a better choice of seed parent, or perhaps something china based like Rouletii.”
Yes I thought the same after I posted the text; I will see … . perhaps also (as an additional testing) something tetraploid, Easy does it is in great flush! =)
Thanks Bernhard!
You are right! There are some further ones that could be of interest … .
I will write about that ones of most interest later, this is a wild time.
Grx!
Arno
OK I counted the seedlings out of that Rosa rugosa alba x Golden Chersonese cross that are still alive and it where 12, so with the already bigger one that flowered this year, they are all in all 13.
The only flowers at the moment, in white or purer colours with ancestors that for sure don’t show yellows, and which are in blossom at this time - and don’t belong to the synstylae section (see also Jinks comment above) - have been three flowers of my Rosa rugosa alba x Rosa beggeriana cross!
What an irony!
I immediately pollinated these ones with Rosa ecae pollen - as they where already beginning to open. So this could become (if it works) a cinnamomea x spinosissima crossing!
Grx!
Arno
Arno, congratulations on your seedlings! This is a fascinating thread. So much food for thought, and it gives me hope for my efforts to cross Rosa xanthina spontanea with Rugosas. My only successful crosses have been with R. xanthina as a pollen parent, but in view of the discussions here, perhaps I should try harder to use R. xanthina as a seed parent also.
I have a couple of 2008 seedlings with ‘Schneezwerg’ as the seed parent. The most vigorous has a xanthina habit with slightly rugose leaves. I’m hoping it will bloom next spring. If its flower is half as pretty as your seedling’s, Arno, I will be delighted.
Unfortunately ‘Schneezwerg’ is becoming susceptible to blackspot, which defeats the object of using it, so this summer I tried xanthina pollen on all my rugosas. All but two of these pollinations failed. It’s not an easy collection of genes to bring together, evidently.
Please keep us posted on your seedlings as they grow!
Hi Betsy!
I am happy if people get fun on breeding while sharing ideas.
Perhaps a direct Rosa beggeriana x Rosa xanthina cross would be a good idea for you!
Or with Rosa x alba in white shades … . E.g. semiplena.
The cool character of the beggeriana descendants would perhaps fit very good to the light yellow and other features of Rosa xanthina. (Also Rosa hugonis and Rosa primula fit in there.)
Further seed parents are always more difficult here. What is the coolest white for seed parents here … I know only Rosa beggeriana which fits; or perhaps also some specimen of Rosa canina / Rosa laxa!
‘Una’ is a good one in white that might give a hint; imagine this one in light yellow with still that dark leafs … .
Grx!
Arno
Very interesting thoughts. The subject of inheritance I find very interesting. Sometimes confusing, but interesting.
By the way what does Grx stand for?