I think it’s funny how some things can make you change your goals or long-held beliefs in an irrational instant whilst others take a lifetime to form. Today was one of those decisive irrational moments. Up till now I always thought… I don’t care if my roses have thorns… they are meant to have thorns… they are roses! Today I was hacking my way through several hundred roses and getting ripped to shreds, despite wearing gloves, and tonight I’ve been picking rose thorn tips out of my hands and arms and I thought… THAT’S IT!!! Thornless roses it is!!! ‘Seafoam’ is just vicious but she pales into insignificance against ‘Nozomi’ and the Flower Carpet roses! I think today’s brain explosion was influenced by a painful encoutner I had yesterday when I was attempting to dislodge a long 1 inch thick branch of ‘Wedding Day’ from a tangled jungle corner I was clearing when it snapped and sprang back smacking me in the face… hurt like a %$#%$&!!! Must have been cos it was cold because I was amazed that it drew no blood… Today was a different bloody affair! So now I want to try an understand thornlessness… I’d rather not go through the Smooth Touch roses if possible… I was thinking of starting out with ‘Softee’ though I have a couple of thornless roses here to choose from, including two thornless multiflora-type plants (all their OP seedlings are thornless also with small prickles on the rachis). Is thornlessnes controlled by a single gene (whose expression is then moderated by modifying genes) or is it more complex than this? ‘Softee’ is smooth and trouble-free here… most the other thornless roses I have here are cut-flower HTs. How would Mr Moore’s ‘Renae’ go with this? Are some thornless roses better at passing this on than others? Any recommendations for good roses to try and find for breeding thornless shrubs/groundcovers in a warm humid environment (rolls eyes… don’t want much do I)?
The problem with Renea is that it produces seedlings with sooo many petals, they don’t produce pollen or anthers. If you’re going to use Renea, use it on a rose that produces single petalled roses.
So a Baby Love X Renea is a good possibility.
I have a Sutter’s Gold X Renea-- nice and pretty with a wonderfully strong scent, but infertile.
But it’s also thornless.
Of course there is 77-361, but there are enough hybrids of it available that you could probably work with them. 77-361 passes on its ugly color pretty easily. Inbreeding those seedlings would be a good route to follow.
Pacific Serenade is good at passing thornlessness, but the seedlings tend to have powdery mildew. But it does produce a good seedling often… here’s my seedling that uses 77-361 and Pacific Serenade
I’ve got OP ‘Commander Gillet’ seeds in the fridge now from Don… they’d probably be thornless too wouldn’t they?
‘Commander Gillette’ OP seedlings will be almost 100% thornless, yes. Many will also be very weak, mildew prone seedlings, unfortunately, so you will have to be brave and weed out the losers ASAP.
‘Renae’ is an excellent rose to work with in pursuing thornlessness, yes. I doubt you can get ‘My Stars’ where you are, but I would put that on the list of roses to work with, as it has superior disease resistance, excellent vigor, great color and beautiful rounded shrub architecture. It doesn’t set seed with foreign pollen but does self fairly readily. Perhaps I can send you OP seed in a few months?
Paul
I would LOVE that Paul 
I love it’s reg. name of ‘Mornothorns’. Your full shrub photo on HMF is outstanding!
How thorny is ‘Baby Love’? My little BL seedling is thornless so far but it is tiny as well.
“It doesn’t set seed with foreign pollen but does self fairly readily.”
Paul, are you referring to My Stars in the above statement? I got My Stars from Nor’East last year and ended up with two plants. I didn’t try any crosses last year because they were too small. They did set several open pollinated hips last year, although none of the seeds germinated. This year every open pollinated bloom has set a hip, and it has formed hips from every foreign pollen I’ve tried on it (although I’ve only made a few attempts).
Mark
Seems like Sequoia Ballet could hold promise for this purpose. Mine’s setting hips this year.
Perhaps Zephirine Drouhin as well.
Thornlessness is difficult to predict. Thornlessness in blackberries is often from a superficial mutation. Ive only seen it happen with sports and not actual hybrids. So, how that relates to roses is that we know its a possibility that the trait could not be passed on in some cultivars through breeding. However, some roses show a trend that its possible. So, its very hard to predict which roses will be helpful for this trait. However, we do know not to use something like Impatient in the crosses 
But I dont know. Personally, I dont find it worth a lot of time to invest in trying for complete thornlessness. I do, however, find it worth my time to select against thorniness and aim for roses that have few thorns. Bonica is a good example of a rose that has some thorns but not enough to consider a weeding hazard. So, to me, its all about relativity regarding the rose cultivar’s actual usage.
Jadae, I agree that fewer thorns is a very practical goal, while not sacrificing other desirable characteristics. As I have indicated on other threads, ‘Gina’s Rose’ has worked well for me.
Speaking of thornlessness, has anyone noticed that the thornless roses seem to be the first to be attacked by spider mites?
Jim Sproul
“has anyone noticed that the thornless roses seem to be the first to be attacked by spider mites?”
Et tu Jim?
Oh yeah, I’ve noticed alright. I don’t know if this proneness to Mites is attributable to susceptibility out of Basye’s Legacy or not. This Spring was a blood bath at my house. SOME are less attractive to mites than others. I’m sure were my roses to go completely deciduous Mites would not be a problem.
I’m going to think hard about importing some predatory Mites.
There is a supplier not far from you I’d like to try.
I’ve used those predatory mites before. I was advised to keep a stand of ‘Pepino’ growing on which to maintain a population of spider mite and predatory mites. My Pepino grew really fast so there was no problem it with it keeping up with things (I was protecting Tomato plants back then). You can tell the difference really easily because the predatory mite is larger and yellow. You just break off a branch of Pepino and lie it amoung your roses and they spread of their own accord.
Spider mite is only a problem with greenhouse plants here. It’s too wet for them outside so it’s not something I’m able to test for. All the thornless roses here seem to behave just like any other. ‘Softee’ doesn’t seem to be affected by anything here and seems super fertile for a triploid; it makes more hips than a Can-Can frontline
What’s Kim’s ‘Carlin’s Rhythm’ like as a plant? Is it thornless or nearly so like ‘Basye’s Legacy’? Looking at ‘My Stars’, Paul, I might be able to do a similar cross with ‘Playboy’ because, so far, I have two OP seedlings up of Kim’s ‘Carlin’s Rhythm’. It’s such a lovely looking rose on HMF… with any luck these seedlings could also be used in the same way as BL.
Something else I forgot to put in the above post… under what circunstances is being predicting thornlessness difficult? Thornless (or nearly so) x thorned or thornless x thornless? If I crossed two thornless roses could I assume the progeny will also be thornless? My cuttings of ‘Renae’ and ‘Climbing Pinkie’ have taken meaning I have ‘Softee’, ‘Renae’, ‘Climbing Pinkie’, my own little thornless OP ‘Green Ice’ seedling (‘Rose Tutu’), ‘Amadis’ and my thornless multiflora to choose from. I also noticed that another rose I have here, ‘Nahema’, is also pretty much thornless. I’m liking the sound of ‘Softee’ x multiflora actually.
Simon, there is one tendency I’ve noted, at least for me.
Once smoothness is lost in a descendant, it’s not always easy to retrieve in subsequent generations.
In other words, if you’re going for smoothness, try not to use prickled descendants, even if they have other qualities you’d like to preserve.
Simon,
I’ve had smooth seedlings from Macredsaus (Red Magic Carpet), which is really thorny itself.
Rod
Didn’t know we could get that one here Rod! Yeah… I’ve got seedlings from Rugosa that are thornless too (‘Scabrosa’ x ‘Gold Coin’ and ‘Scabrosa’ x ‘Magic Carrousel’). But I wasn’t expecting it (fluked it) and wouldn’t have picked it in a million years. I don’t know if it will pass on the trait either. I’m trying to get my head around whether we can reliably predict thornlessness???
Simon,
On Kark King’s website, he has a lot of early articles by noted rosarian’s and hybridizers, and I vaguely recall in one of the articles, it was advised using the smoother rose as the MOTHER in the cross to increase the chance of ensuring smoothness in the seedlings. I too am an advocate of smoothness; grew a huge crop of warts on my hands one year from all the breaks in the skin due to thorns. Have reached a point that one of the criteria in purchasing a rose is how smooth it is. I have read in hosta crosses that the variegation in the seedling is passed on by the mother so have often wondered if smoothness is inherited or modified by something other than the pistil and the pollen.
Jim
Simon,
I don’t know if RMC is still available; I acquired mine in 01. I did see a couple available at Swanes in Sydney in 05 (I think about then). I’v used it a bit - can produce quite a variety of seedlings. The smooth seedling(s) were OPs. It strikes readily from cuttings, if you’d like one, I could strike it for you. (I don’t know what is involved to send it to Tas?)
Rod
There’s not much information around on it Rod. Is it a wichurana-type ground cover? What’s it like? If you have any photos I’d love to see them.
As far as sending stuff to Tassie goes, cuttings and budwood is the way to go. They don’t like struck plants that may have been in the ground. They have told me material needs to have no roots, no leaves, no insects/disease, no other debris and have a label on the envelop saying ‘Contains Rose Propagating material’… and that’s it.
As far as thornlessness goes… Softee has produced quite a lot of seedlings this season. Am hoping these turn out nicely as Softee is such a strong clean grower here.
It is supposed to be a groundcover. Has small leaves, medium-dark red 3-4cm flowers, grows about 30-40cm high, 2m wide. (may grow bigger in ground, I keep mine in pots) Lots of thorns. It can be affected by BS, never seen PM on it.
I haven’t found much info on it either, other than it was released in '98.
It’s not in flower at present (mot many are, here) & I don’t have any photos as yet. (will be interesting to log photos on here?!)
I had Softee years ago, but lost it. I don’t remember it forming hips.
Rod