This might have some obvious and simple answers, but I was trying to search for some reasons why a modern rose might produce seedlings that often (or consistently) do not bloom in their first yr. Other than crossing it with specie types, what other reasons are out there? I haven’t raised climbers but I believe they also sometimes do not bloom their first yr. Any other great (or not) reasons ?
Any number of reasons. It could be a throw back to something behind it which requires the plant to mature, whether it just needs to be larger, climbing or even spring flowering.
I asked this because two roses, Summer Wine and Lady of the Mist , both which I’ve used 1-2 times, produce very healthy and extremely vigorous seedlings with what I’ve paired them with. Both have produced a small (maybe 10%) amount of seedlings that don’t bloom the first yr. They do get big, and they are healthy. Last yr I discarded these except for one very vigorous seedling of Summer Wine that refused to die. I just potted it up today from its seedling pot with about 7-8 new basal shoots in addition to the 4-5 shoots that languished in it’s no care location. (It was in a pile of discards that got some overspray) It didn’t die, never mildewed, no rust nor did it get BS when everything else did, so despite it not blooming I rescued it. Now I have 3-4 seedlings of Lady of the Mist doing the same thing-refusing to die, not blooming (first yr for them) and not a trace of disease. The ones that I kept from that cross have been uniformly attractive, nice colored, lots of fragrance, vigorous and disease free. I think I was somewhere in the “it’s a climber or once bloomer” mode of thinking, which led to dumping them but they just seem to tough to let go of now. I do have one pillar type seedling that I kept three yrs ago, which turned out to be a once bloomer with recurved thorns from hell. I’m not a fan, and the last thing I want is to repeat this.
I have a row of OP Prairie Joy seedlings and 90+% of them are not blooming this year. Many nice, healthy, vigorous plants among them. Many of the remaining remontant seedlings are quite small. There is one (maybe another that is budded) seedling out of 375 that has both good vigor and full remontancy, but it doesn’t have the full bushy habit that many of the non-bloomers have. I guess I’ll let them all be for a couple of years to see what happens.
reasons why a modern rose might produce seedlings that often (or consistently) do not bloom in their first yr.
Theoretically there is a recessive remontancy gene ‘r’ so you need across-the-board ‘r’ to get repeats. In reality, breeding for remontancy is witchcraft.
Little Butterfly is a self of Escapade. Both flower like weeds. Raise selfs of Little Butterfly and you get once flowering rambler/hybrid musks. Excellenze von Schubert also flowers like mad in these parts, but every self I’ve ever raised from it was spring flowering.
This thing is now four (?) years old. It has been completely thornless, very healthy, with beautiful wood and foliage. It’s in a ten gallon (I think) squat and grown solidly into the ground. There are two, huge shoots exploding from the crown of the seedling which are expressing bristles toward their tops. The cross I’ve mentioned before, 1-72-1 X Midnight Blue. You would think it should be prickle free, and it should flower like a house afire. It has NEVER flowered. The pot is behind the hibiscus. You can see the canes shooting up in front of the dodonea behind it.
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[quote=Don]
Theoretically there is a recessive remontancy gene ‘r’ so you need across-the-board ‘r’ to get repeats. In reality, breeding for remontancy is witchcraft.[/quote]
Don,
That’s the truth. ‘Paul’s Lemon Pillar’ is once blooming, though both parents (Frau Karl Druschki and Marechal Niel) are rebloomers. ‘Soleil d’Or’ reblooms, though its pollen parent is reported to have been Rosa foetida bicolor.
Wright’s ‘Hansette’ (Hansa x R. suffulta) “… blooms earlier in the spring than either parent. It blooms but once, each parent having suppressed the type of everblooming shown by the other.”
Karl
Don said: [quote=Don]
“In reality, breeding for remontancy is witchcraft.”
[/quote]
I would expand that to say: “In reality,breeding for consistent, unrestrained, reliable remontancy is witchcraft”.
I have a couple of first gen R. pisocarpa hybrids that bloom with abandon. (they shouldn’t, if they were reading the rules on inheritance, which clearly they were not) I have hybrids from 15 years ago bred from a couple of Hybrid Perpetuals and other “remontants” that are once-bloomers, I have done many crosses using Moore’s ‘Out of Yesteryear’ and found there are always 25% or more seedlings that do not bloom the first year, and at least half of those in subsequent years turn out to be spring bloomers only.
I firmly believe that any cross that is not a clear-cut case of China genes X China genes (Hybrid Teas, Floribundas, Modern Minis, etc) brings potential weirdness into the mix, and you can expect the unexpected. Deciphering the results can lead to maaaadness!
Hearing Nazareth…“Our love… leads to maaaaadness.”
Even the rebloom of rebloomers is not absolutely certain. ‘Frau Karl Druschki’ is mostly a once-bloomer on its own roots, though it reblooms freely when grafted.
Then, too, ‘Marechal Niel’ is not always consistent in its rebloom:
The Garden pp. 100-101 (Feb. 17, 1906)
HOW TO GROW MARÉCHAL NIEL ROSES.
Of its colour, without a rival, this Rose possesses traits quite its own, and must be treated in matters cultural not as a true Tea-scented kind, nor as a Noisette. In all respects it stands alone. To obtain it in its glory it should be grown under glass. Still I can call to mind the first perfect flowers I saw, which were on a tree growing against a cottage in Sussex. Now, to those who contemplate making a start with Maréchal Niel, the first consideration will be what kind of tree is the best to procure. I recommend one budded as a standard on the common Brier, those worked as dwarf plants being found more liable to canker, and those on their own roots less vigorous in growth. All Roses delight in a soil that is known as yellow loam. Mix with this some charcoal and make a border, not large (say a yard square for one tree), but well drained. Plant the tree at once and cut back all growths to about 3 inches, for blooms must not be expected the first year. This Rose is not perpetual flowering, as the greater portion of Teas and Noisettes are. It gives one crop and an occasional bloom during the season. What is required are long, strong shoots, made one year, to flower at every joint the next, and close pruning must be practised to secure these. It matters not how old the tree may be; after the flowers have been gathered, which would be (under glass) about May, all growths should be cut back.
So, ‘Paul’s Lemon Pillar’ consistently blooms once a year, as its parents do inconsistently, under certain conditions.
Karl