Is the grey/silver color of mature ‘R. fedtschenkoana’ leaves lost in F1 seedlings? I’m thinking of long term plans for a (Rugosa #3 x R. glauca) x OP (with the study name ‘Ruglauca’) seedling that has grey-ish colored leaves and red/pink colored stems. I’m looking to intensify the grey color and hoping to get something between grey to purple. Red/purple stems would be a definite goal as well. In addition to line breeding with siblings and F1’s of ‘Ruglauca’ I was wondering if bringing ‘R. fedtschenkoana’ into mix might help me move toward my goal. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I have a one year old R. Glauca X R. Fedtschenkoana seedling with a grayish cast on the leaves. It will hopefully bloom next Spring. One thing to consider is that R. Fedtschenkoana is tetraploid so if you want to stay at the diplod level you might have to reconsider, other wise I think you could get some nice F1’s with grayish leaves using Fedt. I can not get Fedt to set seed so you would probably have to use Ruglauca as the seed parent.
Not necessarily. Take a look at Help Me Find on the pages for my Dottie Louise X Fed. and Cherry Parfait X DLFED hybrids. The colors run the gamut from green to silvery blue to nearly purple. Tbey’re all beginning to show autumnal colors now, too. It will be interesting seeing how they develop in a new climate.
You’ll have to browse each seedling here.
There is one intensely blue seedling here on the Cherry Parfait crosses.
I don’t know how they’ll root, and some of the seedlings do not sucker, but if anyone wants suckers of the ones which do, I’ll be happy to share them for the cost of postage.
Kim, bring me a couple of the bluest ones when you come out and I’ll marry them to the hybrid glaucas?
Apparently the blueness of glauca isn’t as evident in my climate. The hybrid glaucas I sent to Jeff Stover are more blue in Oregon according to his reports.
This species confuses me. It seems so unique yet still undisocvered in many ways, despite being in the lineage of almost all roses since Damasks rolled around the corner.
The tetraploid nature + the family group (cinn.) + its origin locale + the odd rebloom habit makes it very unique before one even considers its sensate uniqueness. The new basals shown on HMF remind me somewhat of the random Rosa nutkana that grow around Oregon. The hips look like alien spawn. The foliage is bizarre and kinda cool. I have yet to smell anything but it is stated to be all unique.
The sport which gave us the Damask Moss, and many repeat blooming moss roses contained Gallica, Fedtschenkoana and Moschata. The sport which gave us the centrifolia/crested version contained Gallica, Canina, Moschata and the above mentioned Damask (thus Fedtschenkoana). I have no clue as to the relation between this species and the moss roses. I am sure that canina aided in cresting though. The scented foliage and the very unusual hips do make me wonder how much R. fed. has aided in the creation of the moss architecture.
Assuming Hurst’s old work is still valid, we know that R. fedtschenkoana Regel. is a 2+2, BBDD, Cinn. group tetraploid. Rosa foetida, Rosa hemispherica, some random variations of the Scotch and the sericea group, usually of yellow tone, also have this combination. BB itself is largely yellow briars. DD is largely simple-natured Cinn. types, mostly American. BBDD is quite the contrast of relative groups and local origins. Most species with BB are noted to have some sort of repugnant scent, lol. DD usually have a specific bark type (either cinnmon or naked). Those are the usual easy markers. DD seems to usually have some sort of glandular activity going on. It makes me wonder if roses like Golden Moss/Orange Moss were logistical fate. Then again, Hurst’s work is reductionistic from the 1920s. But it does not seem all that far fetched from how the various species behave.
I can’t wait to see what you all come up with a decade from now (and further) while using this species in its revival in modern thought.
‘Ruglauca’ may be a tetraploid. It hasn’t been verified yet. Both of its parents are tetraploids. Rugosa #3 is reported to be tetraploid conversion and R. glauca is tetraploid so I thought ‘R. fedtschenkoana’ would be compatible. I also have ‘Skinner’s Red Leaf Perpetual’ that I could throw in the mix with OP seeds of that in the fridge now as well. SRLP is possibly a F2 ‘Carmenetta’ selection and also probably a tetraploid. So, my line of thought was combining ‘Ruglauca’, its siblings, self and SRLP with ‘R. fedtschenkoana’ to hopefully obtain the desired leaf colors. ‘Ruglauca’ is a good starting point as the leaves have a nice blue/grey cast to them.
Kim,
Thank you for the URLs. I’ll check out your seedlings and see what color leaves you are obtaining from ‘R. fedtschenkoana’ F1s.
Robert, the bluest one hasn’t suckered and I honestly don’t know what to expect of it to root. If you want to try, I’ll be happy to get you some cuttings and budwood. I’d love to see what it looks like in the low desert and with Glauca.
I believe the bluer ones are more so in Oregon. Blue Spruce is never as ‘blue’ here as it is in colder, wetter climates.
Rob, if you’d like to try any of them, please let me know. None of us can go in every direction and it’s always fascinating seeing where everyone else travels!
From what I have read and seen, Carmentta is huge. However, it is more closely rleated to R. fed., which might be helpful. The vigor of both is pretty insane. I imagine that if seedlings of vigor were to be had, that they would be overwhelming in both size and amount of suckers. It would seem useful to maybe use each into a modern tetraploid of careful choice in order to merge the two in the following generation. That is the path that I would try if my hands were not already bound with other species choices.
One of the nice things that I can see from Carmenetta is that Rosa rugosa does not seem to overwhelm it like it does with most other crosses involving Rosa rugosa. For example, take note that Carmenetta has not lost the wonderful bloom color tones that most of the canina family portrays. Many Rosa rugosa hybrids are often very dichotomous with either being white or being a color heavy with anthocyanin tones. Some other species hybrids have been successful at stripping this dichotomy away but it seems uncommon. I am guessing that the uneven genetic nature of canina helped in all of this, especially since the canina cluster trait was also retained in a rather aesthetic fashion.
There are a lot of Rosa rubiginosa hybrids at the tetraploid level that may give you less trouble without watering down the cold hardiness too much. It would almost seem efficient to use the yellow toned varieties that heavily merge Rosa foetida with rosa rubiginosa. Unfortunately, the majority of the cold hardy kinds are either really lanky or have extremely dense, glossy foliage that contradicts your goal, especially those hybridized with the kordesii lines. However, a rose like Dakota’s Song seems to merge the best of multiple rubiginosa lines many times over. I am sure there are a multitude of good choices. Rosa fed. seems like an even more difficult choice to match and I have no clue as to what would be efficient.
An even more pertinent point, Jadae, it took me several years to get Fedtschenkoana to cross with ANYTHING, either way. Had Orangeade not been such a “Ho”, I don’t know what might have worked. It was because of that cross, I chose to use Dottie Louise. Thankfully, she was as amenable as the original!
The Newhall garden had well over twelve hundred roses in it, of any class and type you could want. It was created to provide appropriate material to play in any direction I wanted and I hit as many different types there as I had pollen to spread. The Fedtschenkoana stand there was easily seven by seven feet and very dense. It had some flower on it all summer. Never a lot of them at once, but always something there to pull apart and play with. Only two seedlings resulted from that original hip, and I still have them both. When it takes as long as it did and required as many failures as there were, you don’t dump anything.
If the blue on roses is anything like a Blue Spruce then any times of spray or overhead watering other than pure, non-geologic water has the potential of stripping away the “blue”. Different liquids obviously have different potentials. I calculated out the cost and time a pesticide sprayer destroyed by thinking he was helping by spraying an entire half acre of Blue Spruce products for “pests”, especially the Picea pungens ‘Glauca Globosa’. I was like “Dude, you cant grow that back or prune it away. Stop it!!!” I showed him how much he destroyed but he was hell bent on not changing because it was what he was taught. I made him sign a form stating that he agreed not to spray specific Genera or he would be written up and possibly fired if he was written up more than once. Fun times =/ At least roses grow back. I guess Tupac Shakur, the moron that he was, was at least right about roses.
The Rose that Grew from Concrete
Did you hear about the rose that grew
from a crack in the concrete?
Proving nature’s law is wrong it
learned to walk with out having feet.
Funny it seems, but by keeping it’s dreams,
it learned to breathe fresh air.
Long live the rose that grew from concrete
when no one else ever cared.
I could say the same for the Tree of Heaven, haha. Maybe that is part of the appeal of roses? They can be hacked, whacked and mutilated yet they will still throw up stuff until the day they fail to thrive. I guess most roses really are pretty weeds Sometimes the fall of the peak of the success of the hybrid tea reminds me of the realization America had that the wild, wild west no longer needed to be conquered and that roses no longer needed to be constricted into a puritanical format. It is funny to me that Portland is the City of Roses because it is the only area with a 5th form of Govt. (Metro) that forced those within the 20-25 cities to work within the boundaries already preset, rather than expand (and therefore conquer) the external agriculture and wildlife. I bet Lewis and Clark didnt see that one coming, haha.
My mind is way off track tonight… =/ sorry in advance!
I figured it’d be a difficult one. I’m glad Orangeade is slutty, lol. I’d hate to meet Kool-Aid or Tang :)I am sure the latter will give future mariner astronauts random diseases, lol.
I always wondered why some roses have insane fertility. Solitaire has been that way for me. Maybe it is the rose itself or maybe it is location + genetics. I have no clue. I do know that Toprose has matched Solitaire since using it though.
The bigger question is what you noticed the contributions have been. ie. what has Rosa fed. been contributing and what have others been contributing. It may be difficult to know since R. fed. has not been a very willing parent; there is not a lot to generalize from.
Fortunately, Jadae, the blue here isn’t exactly like that of the Spruce. I had the misfortune to witness some beautiful boxed spruces “oiled” in Pacific Palisades. Sickening. I’ve not sprayed these with anything other than our hard, alkaline, “crusty” tap water and it hasn’t changed a thing. They still appear bluer in cooler, damper weather. I never had to spray in Newhall and I won’t spray here in Encino. I know better, now! If I can’t live with what it does, it goes to live somewhere else.
Actually, it hasn’t been that difficult to watch. The only difference between the two lines is the inclusion of Basye’s Legacy. In the Orangeade line, both seedlings look like Fedtschenkoana, but with altered flower color and petal count. Both have scented foliage, but not quite the same as the original and both have the same “paint scent” to the flowers.
The Dottie Louise seedlings have larger flowers over all than the Orangeade ones and all plant pigments are more saturated and ‘glossy’. You’ll see what I mean when you start browsing the photos. I’ve often found the photos on Help Me Find disappointing as they seldom provided enough botanical documentation for me. One shot of flowers with a few leaves just ain’t enough, so I’ve pretty much gone over board posting everything that showed something else I discovered about them.
This year, I finally made the cross I’d been intending to make for a very long time, Lynnie X Fedtschenkoana. Lynnie is the same parentage as Dottie Louise, except with Golden Angel put into the mix. There is a great deal of difference with those genes. I want to reproduce some of the more successful crosses with seedlings from this one, when something finally comes of it.
I’ve found studying them fascinating, watching how the siblings differ so greatly, yet are definitely from the same parents. Three of the five were tricked into giving a second flowering after the extremes in weather we had a few weeks ago. Neither of the Orangeade seedlings seemed to notice. None of the 1-72-1 X DLFED seedlings responded nor did any of the Cherry Parfait or Nicole Carol Miller crosses.
The two which have really amazed me are these two…
Both started flowering right out of the gate and haven’t slowed down yet!
There are prickles! They look very much like the ones on 0-47-19 X DLFED.
1-72-1DLFED3 appears to be going deciduous. It’s finally made it into the ground and it took a hit on the roots which had made it into the ground. It didn’t wilt, but all the old foliage is turning yellow then brown, while the new growth and buds continue to develop. Want pieces?
I lost many hips this year to spontaneous abortion, but managed to collect these. If there is no seedling number, it’s from mixed pollen. I boinked odd things here and there to make sure something worked. More than I hoped, did! You should recognize a few of yours in there, Robert.
Yup, I got two hips to form with one seed between them, if I recall correctly. Surprised the heck out of me. Yes, the Loving Touch cross is yours, want some back? The Letizia Bianca seedling does set hips, LOTS of them. Hope they germinate well!
Rob, R. Gluaca when used as a pollen parent acts as a diploid with 7 chromosomes in the pollen and 21 chromosomes in the seed. So if you used R. Glauca as a seed parent and used a diploid as the pollen parent you should get a tetraploid. The only way to make sure what Ruglauca is, is to test it. Good luck
Sometimes the fall of the peak of the success of the hybrid tea reminds me of the realization America had that the wild, wild west no longer needed to be conquered and that roses no longer needed to be constricted into a puritanical format. It is funny to me that Portland is the City of Roses because it is the only area with a 5th form of Govt. (Metro) that forced those within the 20-25 cities to work within the boundaries already preset, rather than expand (and therefore conquer) the external agriculture and wildlife. I bet Lewis and Clark didnt see that one coming, haha.