My wife has complained to me about the lack of good oranges in my collection. She has a valid point…
Do folks have strong feelings on stock to give good strong vibrant oranges? I like vibrant colors, but I tend to prefer blended oranges to the flat colored ones.
My impression is that most of the floribundas out there aren’t very disease-resistant. I try not to do battle with the fungi, and roses which cannot shrug off a little BS on there own have no place in my garden.
Easy does it has been healthy here past two yrs.
Blooms start orange, changing to deep pink.
Seedlings havent been impressive so far.
I am going to have a few OP seedlings of Orange Fire this year. Orange Fire has great color, but relatively poor vigor. It hasn’t started getting BS here yet, but I don’t think it is immune. Sets hips. I’m interested to see what it will pass on to it’s seedlings.
I think that orange comes in two kinds. One is the overlay of pink on yellow. I have a bunch of those that change towards pink as the yellow fades. Classic case is Rosa foetida and its descendents, including my Carefree copper. Something like Incantation pollen put on a yellow will give lots of orange types. Many apricot shades are something similar.
The other orange depends more on the pigment pelargonidin which comes through in Floradora and descendents. It doesn’t need a yellow base, so the fading shades are different. Of course overlaying it on yellow gives different effects. And the co-pigments (white flavonoids) are critical to getting saturation and intensity.
I was rather surprised that Winter sunset (Buck) OP gives apricot offspring with little evidence of segregation of other shades. so whatever the pigment(s) their expression is closely linked. That differs from Rainbow K.O. which yields pure yellows and pinks as a measurable % of all in OP.
So far only the Rainbow KO is disease resistant for me. I keep hoping to hit a seedling combination with better disease resistance.
I think you are right about the two different oranges. I tend to think of the blends as having a little more “life” in them when viewed both from a distance and close-up – they sort of shimmer in that way – but I think my wife was actually referring to a retina-searing straight orange, which I tend to associate only with some floribundas, interestingly enough. I’m wondering why that class has such a monopoly on the intense oranges?
…And this is a dumb question, but wouldn’t a good red crossed with a solid yellow yield a fair number of oranges, generally?? I have very limited hands-on experience, but am trying to figure out why, when intense colors do exist in other classes, the floribundas account for so many of the orange roses.
Habits die hard. There was money in Fb at the time the orange got really hot. There are some striking minis too like Starina. If you go back through the pedigrees of Superstar (Tropicana) you’ll see the Floradora link- at least he cross of Baby Chateau x R. roxburghii is there. Montezuma came next, then a zillion or so 2nd & 3rd generation kinds. Hardiness and disease issues did in a lot of the HTs, like Bing Crosby.
It takes very little red to yield orange with yellow as the basis In fact I believe Crimson glory expresses yellow too which is how it gets to crimson. If you pull apart a new flower you’ll find yellow at the base. Even 1/4 that much red will be too intense and overpower the yellow. Incantation gives a very small dose of red. Also there are modulators of color intensity beyond the presence/absence of a color gene. And not all yellows are created equal as Don has shown. The xantho type carotenoids are more stable and orangish than simple carotene.
Probably those searing oranges originated from sources such as Gloria Mundi instead of the pink/yellow overlay from Foetida based sources. Violet and pelargonidin oranges appear to have come from multiflora based breeding and frequently comes through that into the floribundas.
I tend to prefer the metallic pigmented oranges, what your wife calls the searing oranges. Vision (terra cotta rose), Glory Days (classed as “med. pink”, but that sucker was ORANGE in Newhall), Baccara, Camara (searing with burned black picotee), Cheshire Life, Fragrant Cloud and Typhoo Tea (MUCH more orange than red to my eye) were the “metallic” type oranges which didn’t blend in the old garden. Foetida type “oranges” all go beige in the heat and sun here, as Nicholas called them, “Thirty minute roses”, like too many earlier Austin roses do. Even after long exposure to triple digit heat and laser beam sun, most of those “fry your retina” oranges held firm so you could tell they were orange. I love the Pernetiana oranges, too, but most often I only really got to see them that way once or twice a year. The rest of the time they were too washed out, too “beige” to tell what they originally looked like.
I don’t grow any of those here. Newhall was arid enough for them to seldom experience any foliage issues. Not Encino. I know they’d be haggardly here.
[quote=Philip_LA]
My wife has complained to me about the lack of good oranges in my collection. She has a valid point…
Do folks have strong feelings on stock to give good strong vibrant oranges? I like vibrant colors, but I tend to prefer blended oranges to the flat colored ones.
My impression is that most of the floribundas out there aren’t very disease-resistant. I try not to do battle with the fungi, and roses which cannot shrug off a little BS on there own have no place in my garden.[/quote]
[size=medium]Philip, you’ll have to find out whether disease is a problem for these in your location, but Prominent, Baccara, and Zorina will surely put some orange in your garden. Baccara and Zorina may be difficult to find.
Peter[/size]
And, Baccara will very likely be a shy bloomer. That was even an issue with it under glass, which is why it was as quickly replaced as it was once something of similar color and longevity which flowered faster was created.
Phillip,
Let me introduce you to my husband’s favorite rose. In this part of Texas it is often called Third St. Orange. Ray Ponton and Robert Stiba discovered this rose happily growing in front of an abandoned house located on Third St. in Taylor, Texas. Being good Texas Rose Rustlers they took cuttings and passed it on to others. This rose grows on the hottest corner of my yard and when it blooms at the same time as the Cenizo planted next to it, it is spectacular. The blooms last a long time and do not fade. It does set hips and produces lots of pollen. It is the pollen parent of Raspberry Lemonade, one of my registered roses. I also have a beautiful cherry red rose from an open pollinated hip of this rose. After doing much research on HelpMeFind I decided that this rose is actually Alexander.
[attachment 426 3rdSt.Orange-small.jpg]
Yup, THAT is “orange”, none of the yellow/pink overlay, and none of the awful “Floradora Fade”. Orange, pure and simple. So “orange” you can taste it. Nice!
A brifhter colored more modern strong and desease resistant is Kordes Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale.
Kordess introduced some newer other roses that are in the same vein.
I recognize that orange, but I cannot place it. It almost reminds me of Holsteinperle, but it isnt it.
Decent orange roses, in my experience:
Livin’ Easy
Remember Me
Tatton
Remembrace (great for dwarfing)
Kanegem
I have Betty Harkness, which is glowing coral orange, but it gets some blackspot. It sets hips. I would recommend many of the orange floribunda types from the UK. There are a lot of new ones out.
Touch of Class breeds orange roses, but it also breeds mildew.
Caribbean was my all time favorite orange rose, but its plant has issues. It is fertile, but it doesnt pass on vigor very well.
Top Notch will give orange, and it will give blackspot to kingdom come. I will always attempt to avoid roses with New Year and Sexy Rexy in them, with some exception.
I began using Oso Easy Paprika last year. I was going to skip it until I read positive reports on blackspot. I have many (Cherry Meidiland x Livin’ Easy) x Oso Easy Paprika germinating right now. I also use (Livin Easy x Baby Love) as another orange breeder in my collection. The former is a coral blend and the latter is a tangerine orange self. This is what I would call the third, and likely best, spectrum of orange. It lacks the heavy coral tones, yet it is not a blend.
I’d stay away from Zorina hybrids if possible. They tend to breed really heavy, bleeding colors.
Artistry, which was bred from the very vivid Dynasty, is also a decent possibility.
I would really be interested in what comes of the crosses with Oso Easy Paprika, it is on my short list of roses I want to add. According to A&M research it is resistant to all three blackspot races they tested for.
Joan, your presumed Alexander is quite nice, and looks prettyy healthy and vigorous on own roots to boot.
(Might you have cuttings to offer?)
(I’m guessing being a little to the east, you didn’t get quite as much rain as we did last night. I think 2012’s cumulative rainfall has already topped that of the entirety of 2011 now.)
Phillip
Would be glad to send you cuttings or better yet, come and be my guest at the Bastrop County Rose Society Meeting in Elgin on April 13 and I will introduce you to Ray Ponton and Robert Stiba.
Go Philip and while you’re at it, get introduced to Miss Bloomsalot. It really looks like something which needs much more use and distribution.
Would love to, Joan, though with all the stuff I’m slammed with, I doubt I’ll be able to do so. Feel free to PM with more info though.
And Miss Bloomsalot is an intriguing bush. Does one assume it is triploid (ergo, blooms a lot)? Paloma Blanca sure tamed the colors of the other two. (Does she generally suppress color in her descendants?)
I really need to get ‘baby love’ to add to my stock!
Changing the subject slightly, if I were one to actually like the gaudiness of, say, ‘Rio Samba’, is there a rose along those lines that would be recommended?
Sunita from Heirlooms worked well for me as a pollen parent on Daybreaker many years ago. Tequila Sunrise is beautiful, but it blackspots badly. Most roses that blend yellow to red blackspot a lot. Music Box, a new shrub rose, blends like Peace does.
Tequila Sunrise will also proliferate if you even THINK the word “nitrogen”. Beautiful sepals on strong stems with some very attractive colors, but far too many malignant looking, green “tumors” with only one or two actual petals. It was so common, when I’d fertilize, I didn’t even walk past the plant with it for fear of the thing throwing proliferation. I wanted to explore it with the crested seedlings, but it’s quite difficult to pollinate a dozen, malformed, fuzzy green growths on the end of a stem.