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Roses for Hybridizing
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1

I’m new to hybridizing roses and am interested in plant breeding in general. My initial foray this year was mainly practicing my pollination technique and stratifying seeds (likely collected later than good for them). I have a fondness for Hybrid Perpetuals (don’t know quite why ).

My initial crosses were:

Sharifa Asma X Paul Neyron

Sharifa Asma X Reine des Violettes (1 seed)

Plus I have OP seeds from Sun Flare, Sharifa Asma, Graham Thomas, Queen Elizabeth.

BTW, I may have done the “PNRSV” pollen on a virus free plant as I believe my Paul Neyron may be virused (I guess that’s what you get for buying the $2.99 plant at Home Depot). Of course neither P. Neyron or S. Asma were tested before hand, but if I get any germinated seed, I’ll try to let this group know if any of the plants appear virussed.

I was sorry to read on this forum that Sharifa Asma is not a good parent. It is such a good performing rose in my garden. I was also surprised to read that Reine des Violettes was useful as a parent, I had almost concluded that it was affectively sterile. I found it very difficult to find stamens/pollen.

I have two goals in mind, one fairly simple, the other much more difficult (and I suspect perhaps, impossible). You’ll note that the seeds above have very little to do with these goals.

Goal 1: OGR type blossom, in vibrant, golden yellow color.

Goal 2: Splotched/striped (is there an official term?) rose pattern like Ferdinand Pritchard (or G. Burns, Scentimental, etc.) but yellow in the stripes and purple/mauve as the darker color.

Both above would hopefully be accomplished with VG. remontancy, G to VG scent and reasonable disease resistance, vigor, etc.

Question 1: I have Marco Polo and Sun Flare, but am disappointed in their color (and I thought Sun Flare, from prior experience was more disease resistant than I’m finding in my garden). Both are lighter than I’m looking for, and I find particularly that the M. Polo seems to fade. I’ve been looking at Gold Medal and Midas Touch. Does anyone recommend either as a breeding stock or have another recommendation? I dislike roses approaching apricot shades.

Question 2: For breeding striped roses, would anyone have a suggestion. I was leaning towards F. Pritchard, but would look forward to any other recommendations.

Question 3: I was looking at Cardinal de Richelieu as a source of dark color, but of cource that would require multiple generations to regain remontancy. Any other suggestions for the mauve/purple shades?

Observation: I’ve found in interesting that the roses you wanted most (in my case Sun Flare, and Graham Thomas) seem to turn out disappointing and ones you weren’t sure about (in my case Sharifa Asma) turn out to be your favorites.

Thanks for your time,

Chris Mauchline

2

Cardinal de Richelieu is an extreamly hard to work rose. Right now I am working with it with various parents. Had no luck. Reine des Violettes is a particular favorite. Very small amount of pollen. Usually I sacrafice 12 dozen or more for pollination of a few roses. And none of the seedlings survived for me-- but that is because they because slugs ate them. I believe that after one generation, there should be some repeat blooming since it is sopposedly close to a china.

3

Freedom and Midas Touch seem to be the clearest, non-fading yellows I know of. St Patrick is as well but can lean towards apricot tones in some conditions–of which you mentioned you disliked. Sun Sprite is fairly dark for a yellow as well. I cant help you with the OGR because the only ones I have are the shrub types such as hybrid musks.

4

Chris,

“I was sorry to read on this forum that Sharifa Asma is not a good parent.”

It sucks as a parent. 100% of early seedling attempts using Sharifa were thrown out. Most were weak and extremely disease prone. For that type of breeding, go back to Mary Rose to get better results.

" I was also surprised to read that Reine des Violettes was useful as a parent, I had almost concluded that it was affectively sterile. I found it very difficult to find stamens/pollen."

Reine des Violettes will occasionally produce some offspring, but many are disease prone. Working with this variety will be very very slow, as it is reluctant to produce pollen. If you don’t care how fast your work proceeds, then by all means work with it.

“Goal 1: OGR type blossom, in vibrant, golden yellow color.”

Work with Graham Thomas. Abraham Darby, when crossed onto a strong yellow will give some very good results also.

“Question 2: For breeding striped roses, would anyone have a suggestion. I was leaning towards F. Pritchard, but would look forward to any other recommendations.”

I would avoid Ferdinand Pichard if I were you. All of our modern striped roses came from Ferdinand, but hard working breeders worked for generations to distill the striping and remove the many undesirable qualities. You will find that many of the first generation offspring of Ferdinand are poor repeaters, extremely disease prone and tall lanky plants that bloom only at the tops. You will make much better progress if you work with a Miniature like ‘Pinstripe’, which will give you much more compact, floriferous results.

“Question 3: I was looking at Cardinal de Richelieu as a source of dark color, but of cource that would require multiple generations to regain remontancy. Any other suggestions for the mauve/purple shades?”

Cardinal de Richelieu is 100% sterile. A study done a few decades back tested this, and many other Triploid roses for fertility, and this clone was found to be totally sterile as both seed and pollen parent. You would be much further ahead to work with willing parents. Although it will take two generations to get remontant offspring, I suggest crossing Tuscany Superb with modern red/crimson/purples. Some of the resulting colors are extraordinary, and a percentage of them will be very fertile and capable of moving into the next generation. Use Tuscany Superb as pollen parent if possible.

Some of the crimson Austin roses are proving to be very good parents, mostly as pollen donors. I have seen excellent results using both Tradescant and The Prince. Tradescant pollen placed on the Damask Perpetual Rose de Rescht has resulted in a seedling with excellent coloring much like Reine des Violettes. (See photo below) The plant grows very much like Rose de Rescht but taller, and repeats very well. Rose de Rescht doesn’t set a lot of seeds, but they usually germinate well.

Austin crimsons on deep yellow or red Miniatures will give some very nice results as well, including some mauves. I have a few such hybrids in testing now. They are all 4 to 6 foot shrubs, not Miniatures.

I highly recommend using Tradescant and The Prince as pollen parents in the search for good purples/mauves. Offspring of The Prince often have superior vigor compared to their parent.

I have one intermediate hybrid from Tuscany Superb that produces 25% repeat blooming offspring when crossed with a remontant modern rose. It sets seed very readily with almost anything, and they germinate extremely well. If you want cuttings of this hybrid to experiment with, I will gladly share wood with you when the time is right.

Regards,

Paul

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PS to Henry:

Contrary to rumor, the seed parent of the rose illustrated above was NOT a telephone pole! :wink:

Regards,

Paul

6

"PS to Henry:

Contrary to rumor, the seed parent of the rose illustrated above was NOT a telephone pole! :wink:"

Sure, Paul. We have all heard about how common it is for breeders to hide the parentage of their best breeders. :<)

7

Paul,

Thanks for all the great knowledge and advice! It’s good to learn that Cardinal is sterile. Will help me eliminate a lot of useless frustration.

Chris Mauchline

8

Hello Chris,

Welcome to the little club of Hybrid Perpetuals lovers…

Some ideas:

Is it so important to have yellow OGRs-Like? Let’s imagine,say, a Yellow Paul Neyron.This would disturb me, I associate HPs with pink, dark red, Lilac and white.

Crossing Modern roses with HPs is interesting, but I prefer the reverse way ; trying to find supposed ancestors, and then back-crossing with them.

Above all, have fun!

Pierre Lauwers.

9

Welcome Chris! Gold Medal is a great rose and it sets hips well, but the seeds are very slow to germinate. Plan to keep them at least two years. It is less time consuming to use it as a pollen parent.

Tom Carruth’s 2003 introduction Mellow Yellow is supposed to hold its color very well. I don’t know whether it is fertile. Mellow Yellow’s pollen parent was Midas Touch, so Midas Touch is fertile, at least as a pollen parent. Mellow Yellow’s seed parent was O Sole Mio, so you might want to consider trying it in your breeding program.

10

I have found Midas Touch to have superior disease and vigor qualities in the Pac NW than it’s offspring, Mellow Yellow. Also, have you considered the shrubs, Purple Heart or Outta the Blue, as part of your project since they have informal form-fragrance-repeat bloom-stable plants and rare color? Just a thought.

-Mike

11

Hi Chris

If you’re not averse to using a hybrid tea for the purple color, I would recommend Stephen’s Big Purple as a seed parent. I’ve discovered over two years that its op seeds germinate well, and if some don’t germinate the first year, they will still germinate in the second. Most of the op seedlings, big surprise! are double, most are in the purple/fuchsia range, with some lavenders, and many are fragrant. Of course you have those pesky long stems and star shaped blossoms to contend with, but you know, you can’t get everything you want from one rose.

As for yellows, you never know what you’ll get. I’ve gotten lemon yellow from two ambers. Good luck.

12

Yes, why is it that breeders often hide parentages of roses? David Austin seems to be the worsest. I’ve seen so many of his roses whose parentages differs in many books.

13

Hello Enrique,

I agree about D.Austin. It’s the same tendancy as with the workers that hide what’s on their workbenches to the young!

In his books he described his breedings (“Gallicas”(!)& Floribundas…) as if it was very very simple. I did not believe it for a minute.

Pierre Lauwers.

14

I beg to differ. I think of all the modern hybridizers, Austin has been, in most cases, very straightforward about the parents that went into his breeding program. Lately he seems to be reluctant to divulge the parentage of some of the new hybrids, but still, the information is there for the majority of his plants. In the few cases where there have been variations printed in books about parentage, I suspect those were typos, as they seem to be only variations on the names. (On occasion ‘Gloire de Dijon’ has been listed as a parent where it was supposed to be ‘Gloire de Ducher’, etc.)

When a complex seedling is one parent, it is traditional to list that parent as “Seedling”. I have no problem with this practice. What is the point in divulging the parentage of a seedling, aside from sating curiosity? Another hybridizer isn’t going to be able to duplicate that seedling by making the same cross anyway.

Compared to many, Austin is very forthcoming about the roses he uses in breeding.

Paul

15

In case you missed this (I posted this on another forum).

“Probably the most famous story that illustrates what oldroser said is the case of two different hybridizers introducing the same rose, one as Toro (Karl Herbst seedling X Big Red) and the other as Uncle Joe ((Mirandy X Charles Mallerin) X unnamed seedling). The reference for the parents is Modern Roses 8.”

16

I am including this here because of the HP discussion. Is it a fluke or where would a miniature come from with an open-seeded General Jacqueminot? (from a late formed hep I believe was a self-seed the only thing near it was Abraham Darby) I understand the gallica, the china, the gigantea, the musk or possible r. phonecia. Is the miniature form of r. chinesis within Slater’s Crimson China makeup?

Also, FYI open/self-seeded GJ sets seed very well as does Leverkusen and Jenny Duval (with the caveat that Leverkusen has produced many short lived dwarfs, fascinating to watch form leaflets) Other forms so far from Leverkusen , all have that prehistoric curlish growth with serrated leaves and nasty prickles and no buds. In Leverkusen’s favor is its mutt ancestry which may let you into other classes with ease. The pink sport doesn’t surprise me but who needs stability if you are just passing through? I have nothing to share about Jenny Duval other than seedlings which are very slow growing.

Except for this miniature, I did not expect, I sense GJ is (while kind of bland) a easy route to back-crosses to Portlands, Gallicas, and has a fairly generic form to get a pronouced product from which then will allow color changes ( back to a pernet tea for yellow) but little form change. Self/open seeded offspring have been mostly repeats in my small grouping (32 seeds in one hep) with 50% germination. I don’t think the lack of disease resistance will be an easy thing to overcome but will do as well as any of the latently prone BS and PW roses of Austins in trials. Some hybridization, perhaps the best, must come from experience and some from hunches. Mine would be that GJ will take accept yellow well, even though I do not know or understand, yet, the percentage of certain factors inherent in determinations of color. Has anyone had experience with Capitaine John Ingraham?