Could some of you advanced guys throw out a few names? I’m in the planning stages for some crosses based on discussions from the Line Breeding thread and am looking for some names of some repeat blooming (preferably), yellow diploids that are disease resistant and that have decent fertility and that aren’t climbers…thinking towards seedlings of smaller stature. My first thought was something from the polyantha group but I’m not very familiar with that class. I had also thought of R. xanthia or ‘Canary Bird’ with the understanding that it would take several generations to obtain remondancy. The other parent would be from a nitida x rugosa cross. The goal is strong yellow, repeat bloom, disease resistance, hardiness, dark diminitive leaves and smaller stature plants. Thanks in advance.
Well, I got seeds from Buff Beauty x Rainbow Knockout this year. One hip out of maybe half a dozen pollinations. Several seeds. A bit hard to find the pistils of BB. If it had the color of BB and the size and bloom capacity of RKO it might be marketable. I will try seriously next year.
Will a triploid work? If so, ‘Golden Angel’ is a highly fertile triploid and capable of delivering good yellows. It can give good Winter hardiness as well, and in some cases, its offspring have excellent disease resistance. Just a thought. I would also consider ‘Buff Beauty’, although it is yet again a triploid.
This is a scenario I have thought about for a very long time but never really put elbow grease into it because of the difficulty (shame on me, to be hoenst). I did try with some species but the bloom timing in an area with very wet Springs is infuriating. There are other triploid yellow minis too. Its definitely one of the wiser routes. This is a very difficult path to follow because it involves two very fickle traits as one. Yellow alone is a pain to work with because it often involves a lot of negative qualities that come with it. I personally thought of backcrossing Toprose, one of the healthier unfading yellows, into diploids to try for a fertile triploid. If one were to ever make a stable, strong yellow diploid, it would probably be good news to the ears of northern breeders.
There are a lot of roses on the diploid near-species level that could benefit from widening the range of available color tones. I am still sometimes curious why orange is not more common in northern roses since it is readily available in both diploid and tetraploid forms. I am assuming that this is because yellow on that level is fleeting. Yellow tones seem to mellow out and/or expand the range of acceptable orange tones. Without yellow, many orange tones are either very garish or poorly expressed. Coral Drift is a prime example of this. The orange tones fade into some seriously nasty-looking tones. Kordes is really the only northern hybridizers that has even approached orange tones successfully in hardy roses. Buck made some attempts but his apricot roses seem to be superior. His choices were more limited back then. There is more available to us now, even despite the economy that is eating up business like theyre a snack. I also think a diploid yellow would be helpful for creating pinks tones that have a softness to them that yellow can provide. Marie-Victorin is a good example of how yellow can positively influence pink.
On that note, ever wonder what a russet, disease-resistant, cold hardy shrub would look like in the landscape? I personally have no clue but I hope to live long enough to see it some day. I’m pre-emptively calling dibs on the names Turdzilla and Chocolate Volcano
Why not consider William Allen Richardson, which is supposedly a diploid. It is Buff Beauty’s mom. I have been advised it is also fertile both ways (I have never used it myself).
According to Eugster, William Allen Richardson makes copious amounts of flavanols, which are the precursors to the anthocyanins. Certain derivitives of these flavanols actually contribute to the yellow component of the color of William Allen Richardson (and likewise to that of Whisky Mac) but only in combination with the carotenoids that are also present. However, the carotenoids in William Allen Richardson are not stable and it never builds up dense coloring. Its offspring also inherit this fading characteristic as you can see by the predominance of buff yellows. The opportunity with William Allen Richardson may lie more with its ability to produce a lot of flavanols rather than carotenoids.
Sorting through the lineage of William Allen Richardson at HMF turns up some interesting clues as to directions to take with it.
All of the offspring of William Allen Richardson are through it’s selfling Calisto ( a medium yellow) then an unnamed F2 of Calisto with Perla de Alcanada that is a sister seedling to the densely pigmented Baby Baccar
I used to grow Buff Beauty and although I loved the look of it I was not impressed with the overall fertility of it when I used it with tetraploids. Maybe crossing it with a diploid parent will produce some nice diploid seedings. Same idea with Paul’s recommendation for the triploid Golden Angel and Jadae’s mentioning about other triploid minis.
Although I like the look of Buff Beauty better than William Allen Richardson, using WAR may be quicker since it is a diploid. Thanks for the suggestion George.
Since my space is limited it may work better for me to go the route of Golden Angel since it is so highly rated and successful as a parent. Are there any other good yellow triploid minis that anyone could recommend? Thank you guys for the great suggestions!
I only mentioned Buff Beauty at whim as an example that, as Don has mapped out, we need to think of creative ways to attain a goal as difficult as this one. Sunshine, for example, is pretty much a dwarf WAR, but I am sure it also has limitations. Every route for a goal like this will likely have some nasty negatives mixed in.
One thing that I would like to know more about is how going from triploid to diploid works out in terms of what is actually carried over to the new diploid. It seems logical that both negative and positive qualities would be lost or gained. One cannot change a dramatic piece of a puzzle and expect everything to work as it had before. Wouldnt everything from that point forward then express different factors? Its a lot to even think about or approach.
One of the roses I find extremely successful as a stand alone yellow is Golden Wings. It is such an unusual plant from all angles of thought. And who knew that it could have came from what it did? We are not even sure about its exact parentage. Every source contradicts another. But we at least know the generalized parentage.
‘Buff Beauty’ is a wondeful rose that I loved growing when I had the room. You raise some good questions about what changes are brought forth or lost when going from triploid to diploid. With the reduction in genes are we losing something important? The great unknown. So, do I go back to my original thought and work with strong yellow polyanthas? That seems like a simpler route. I could always work a seperate line using ‘Golden Angel’ as well.
I grew ‘Golden Wings’ years ago when I had more property and loved it as well. What a great plant. Thanks for the comments.
If you’re considering climbing triploids, how about Star of Persia? I bought it from EuroDesert Roses, and I think there’re are decent odds it’s true to type. It is sure a lot more disease resistant than Soleil d’Or, which isn’t saying much. Actually it’s been clean. I need to check it after the rain to see if it blackspots.
"On that note, ever wonder what a russet, disease-resistant, cold hardy shrub would look like in the landscape? I personally have no clue but I hope to live long enough to see it some day. I’m pre-emptively calling dibs on the names Turdzilla and Chocolate Volcano
"
Jadae, the Coffee Roses are pretty “subtle” in landscapes and tend to really look dead. They absorb light rather than reflecting it. In my experience, they really only look good when grown together where they can play off one another.
Imagine a russet ground cover called “Mississipi Mud”. How about “Clean-up Aisle 5!”? A nice little brown micro mini, “Little Poopie” or “Poopie Face”.
Yeah, only the russet-orange floribundas have looked okay in the landscape. They tend to reflect light. Some of the lighter russet tones would look great near primrose and mauve colors but I dont see that happening much, lol.
With the russets… I like the idea of combining them with something that experiences a chromatic shift, like ‘Mutabilis’ or ‘Masquerade’, so that instead of them being a solid brown, the effect was a more dappled from yellow to russet… to soften the whole thing… more like a chocolate-coated honeycomb effect Do you guys get Violet Crumbles over there… mmmmmmm… This colour combo works beautifully in tall bearded iris. One of my favourite is one called ‘Scottish Reel’… which is basically yellow and brown.
“By the way, it would have been interesting to see if Golden Angel x Tigris worked.”
I don’t know about Tigris, but I have seeds from Golden Angel X both Roses Are Red and Persian Sunset this fall. Roses Are Red and Persian Sunset both have Tigris as a parent.
"Imagine a russet ground cover called “Mississipi Mud”. How about “Clean-up Aisle 5!”? A nice little brown micro mini, “Little Poopie” or “Poopie Face”. "
“Poopie Face” is what you’d call a “brown” seedling bred from ‘Angel Face’!
Do you guys get Violet Crumbles over there… mmmmmmm… This colour combo works beautifully in tall bearded iris. One of my favourite is one called ‘Scottish Reel’… which is basically yellow and brown.