Has anybody successfully used ‘Mermaid’ in their breeding programs? I’m not really looking to buy, just had an idea I wanted to share. I had the strangest idea for a pairing today that I would love to see if it would take. I don’t grow ‘Mermaid’ and I don’t think I’m seeing myself getting it anytime soon so I obviously can’t make the cross myself, but I’m curious if one was to try and cross ‘Mutabilis’ and or it’s seedling ‘Plaisanterie’ with ‘Mermaid’ - what some of the outcomes could be?
I’m somewhat obsessed with the ‘Mutabilis’ clan, they’re so charming. It would probably produce a monster, no doubt, but I would be completely enamored with the idea of a rose that had the color shifts of Mutabilis on a rose with flowers the size of 'Mermaid’s, it would look kind of like an over sized ‘Plaisanterie’ I’d imagine, no?
Good idea/ bad idea? What you guys think? I’m not very familiar with 'Mermaid’s track record in breeding, do you think such a cross would even take?
If anybody has both of them maybe it might be fun to try crossing them together if they seem compatible…
I’d seriously not use Mermaid. Its really hard to work with but it also doesnt really seem to readily pass on anything of value. I know the gigantea climbers are just as tender but they might be better suited mates. Also, I would probably use the Lens hybrids of Mutabilis over Mutabilis itself because they are likely hardier, less temperamental to being pruned and generally healthier.
I think that there are even more options to consider for crossing the Lens hybrids to if one was to dig around enough. Single blooms, phototropism, tea color tones and a climbing habit do not seem too far fetched for quite a few matches.
Ah see nothing lost there then.
On a serious note, I really love ‘Plaisanterie’ I think that plant has so much potential as a breeder.
I was just humored by the idea of color-shifting rose in the ‘Mutabilis’ derived style with the petals being much larger a la ‘Mermaid’.
It also was inspired by a joke Kim Rupert made concerning the dislike of ‘Ballerina’ and ‘The Fairy’ and an imaginary cross between the two and naming the seedling ‘Vampira’
I responded with well, he could breed ‘Ballerina’ with ‘Mermaid’ and then you’d have a ‘Hooker’ (somewhat poor taste, but it describes the thorns perfectly)
It was then it struck me that ‘Mermaid’ DID have pretty large blossoms. I was curious if anybody had tried anything like that before. Not really something I’d actively try myself.
On a semi unrelated note, I just discovered ‘Chireno’ the ‘Carefree Beauty’ x ‘Mutabilis’ cross. Rather intriguing!
Oh the mind never stops working…
Oh, yeah! The possibilities are endless, aren’t they? The mind wobbles! You couldn’t hear me, but I laughed quite well when I read “Hooker” in your email. It wouldn’t have to be in poor taste to use the name. I know an elderly lady whose married name is Hooker. You “hook” rugs, so it could be a pun on the prickles, rug making, etc. As we have discussed, “quirky” and pun-ish names are a pleasure of mine! Not rose related, but there is a Lobelia I enjoy which is grape purple and grows about knee high. It is in the trade as “Grape Knee-hi” a pun on the grape soda, and Radar O’Reilly’s favorite drink.
Actually, what I have wanted to see for a very long time is Mermaid with a Hulthemia “blotch”! Imagine an enormous, cathedral eating, thorny, evergreen climber with large “yellow hibiscus” flowers…Oh, Jim…! LOL! (Sorry! I know, too much coffee this morning!)
I wish I could find the reference, so forgive me if this turns out to be a misquote…
I remember an article by (I think) E. B. Legrice in which he mentioned working with ‘Mermaid’ in breeding. He said he grew literally thousands of seedlings from it and the staggering majority were horrible, stunted, diseased runts. (Although LeGrice does list ‘Pearl Drift’ as a ‘Mermaid’ hybrid, but its parentage has been disputed by the LeGrice firm recently. I would in fact question the pedigree of all of the listed ‘Mermaid’ progeny, as none of them appear to show any ‘Mermaid’ traits whatsoever. I’m thinking apomixis, or intentional misrepresentation of the pedigree on the part of the breeder, perhaps?)
At any rate, ‘Mermaid’ is not something I’d consider for breeding. The odds of getting anything worth having are slim. Still, that shouldn’t stop you from trying; there are hundreds of ways to breed a flop, using ‘Mermaid’ is only one of 'em!
Suggestion: mate ‘Mutabilis’ with a diploid yellow. (Or triploid, if you have one) I’m thinking along the lines of ‘Yellow Magic’ X ‘Mutabilis’ or some such combo.
Paul
I would think a better way to achieve a “Mermaid” like “Mutabilis” hybrid would be to use R. bracteata X “Mutabilis”.
After all, the most desirable traits of “Mermaid” are derived from R. bracteata, so why not go strait to the source. You would be far more likely to obtain what you are imagining.
Jinks.
Pearl Drift has said “New Dawn” to me much more than anything related to Mermaid.
Paul, don’t you think there would be a better chance of ‘taking’ Mutabilis better with Golden Angel than Yellow Magic? YM is too much like a mini version of Little Darling…long, floppy canes.
If you want to go back to Bracteata, or something closely related, I should still have a plant of Muriel out back. When Sequoia closed, I grabbed it knowing it wasn’t something which would hang around commercially. If I can find it, cuttings should be there for the asking. I’ll check for it specifically if anyone wants it.
Muriel is the only bract hybrid that I actually like, although I have never seen it in person. What does it smell like? Both parents can be sniffers.
‘Muriel’ has none of the scent of ‘Guinee’ and only a hint of R. bracteata’s odd acetone smell. You have to get your nose into a bloom late in the morning on a warm day to detect any fragrance at all, in fact.
Kim,
I agree about ‘Golden Angel’ except that in my experience it rarely gives any deep yellows. I’ve been disappointed in the scarcity of richly colored offspring to be had from it. True, ‘Yellow Magic’ is a bit of a rank grower itself, but it bred ‘Rise ‘N’ Shine’, which is as compact and tidy as you could want.
Rise’N’Shine produces pastel colors, too. I like how Golden Angel acts like a chameleon, resembling what it’s bred with. I’ve found Golden Angel increases disease resistance better, too.
Mermaid is a bad mother, its pollen was tested fertile. I quit using it as mother ten years ago and recently got another plant.
Mutabilis is a bad germinator… I would like it tested with tomato pulp and/or water stratification.
Something I will try also on a large sample of gigantea OP seeds.
I did a lot of bracteata crosses (thousand of seedlings) and can attest that just as Pearl Drift does most modern x bracteata hybrids do hide the species contribution. F1 seedlings have this sort of very glossy and smooth leaves. Stronger stiff more desease tolerant plants and some F1 are recurrent.
Good enough for me to continue interbreeding them and back to different species for the last ten years.
It also was inspired by a joke Kim Rupert made concerning the dislike of ‘Ballerina’ and ‘The Fairy’ and an imaginary cross between the two and naming the seedling ‘Vampira’ …I responded with well, he could breed ‘Ballerina’ with ‘Mermaid’ and then you’d have a ‘Hooker’ (somewhat poor taste, but it describes the thorns perfectly)<<<<<<<<<<<<<
ROFLOL!!! I am soooo enjyoing this bizarre humour this morning! And the coffee was good too this morning…thx for the laughs!!
Max, I do not recall where you live but I do recall that it was in the East US. Rosa bracteata has some issues that should be considered before jumping forward. The primary issue is that it is not that cold hardy. It is not too far from Rosa banksia in hardiness. The magnificent specimen of Rosa banksia lutescens that I used to grow up an Austrian Black Pine was sheltered by said pine tree, but it still had cold damage every year. The cutting of Rosa brateata that I grew out on a friend’s property also had the same issue. So Zone 8 gave them minor damage. I figure Zone 7 would be the universal cut off point.
The next issue is that Rosa bracteata is not as friendly with spot diseases as other species ramblers. I have seen it with both blackspot and anthracnose. The latter was more bothersome. And the we have the thorns to deal with. Theyre vicious.
Rosa bracteata has some positive traits though. It is super easy to root (a definite breeding goal for most), the foliage is aesthetic, the peduncles are very unique (fuzzy!) and the blooms are among the more aesthetic among species roses.
So, I believe all of the above are things to consider when working with this species. If one’s aim is to create a mainstream rose, then one would obviously need to incorporate hardier mates. The prickles, a word that makes this species’ defense system sound cute, were definitely passed on to Mermaid. So that is another onvious constrant that should be thought of when matching mates. If Mermaid was hardier and had friendly stems, it would definitely be mainstream. People would probably not even mind hacking it down every few years to contain it’s vigor.
HMF pic of Mermaid prickles.
And a photo from texasinvasives.org for Rosa bracteata prickles.
I can prune any Rosa rugosa with my bare hands and never really mind it but both of these roses have definitely cut me up because they back-hook anything they touch. Theyre designed like fish hooks.
On the subject of Bracteatae and prickles, how do R.clinophylla thorns compare to R.bracteata thorns?
They seem to be less numerous and mostly facing outward with a slight down turn.
Has anyone tried Rosa cymosa yet? It would be nice to compare to the tender ramblers, the euorpean ramblers and Rosa wichurana. The banksia relation is obvious in the way the leaves set and in the stem architecture. It produces the large, white multiflora style sprays. The main difference are that multiflora is free-standing instead of rambling, cymosa is trainable.
I have cymosa from seed progressing slowly. It seems to be gaining a little speed as the weather here is finally cooling. It will probably be years before it blossoms for the first time. I’ll be watching it for mildew.
I can’t wait, Robert 
I remember seeing it in a book like … 18 years ago? I was intrigued. It looked very whimsical and out of context then, lol.
If I can get out there and there is light enough I’ll get a foliage pic of seedling cymosa. The stems are very wispy.
I know the photo you’re speaking of, it’s in one of the Phillips and Rix books. They are partially responsible for rekindling my rose obsession. I had the pleasure of meeting them both several years back. They are both wonderful.