Long John Silver as a parent?

Another post got me to wondering (again) about this Setigera/Pernetiana hybrid. I don’t know its hardiness, but the Setigeras (per Helpmefind) are listed to zn 3, and the pernetianas typically are recurrent yellow-ish roses, and the form of Long John Silver has always caught my eye (in photos – never seen it personally) and it’s fragrant and resistant…

There are no listed descendants that I can find.

I love the idea of a recurrent yellow having many of the attributes (potential attributes) of this rose and descendants thereof, and wonder if others have any experience using it, or Setigeras in general…

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=3882

Therese Bauer is not in Help Me Find but is in Modern Roses 11.

From my web page (http://home.neo.rr.com/kuska/2004_and_2005_very%20good%20seedlings.htm ):

"((Therese Bauer X OP) X Hawkeye Belle) X (Carmenetta X OP) 1, 0, 0, 0 plants.

Carmenetta is R. rubrifolia X R. rugosa. It is a tetraploid.

((Therese Bauer X OP) X Hawkeye Belle) X ((Delicata X OP) X (( Therese Bugnet X OP) X OP)) 2, 2, 0, 0 plants.

I wonder whether (Delicata X OP) X (( Therese Bugnet X OP) X OP) is a tetraploid.

(Therese Bauer X OP) X mixed pollen 1, 0, 0, 0 plants.

Open pollinated seedlings of Therese Bauer have given me very large, repeat blooming, double flowered shrub roses. Therese Bauer is (Hansa X R. setigera) X R. setigera. "

Link: home.neo.rr.com/kuska/theresebauer.htm

Henry, I’ve added Therese Bauer to the HMF database. Do you know if it is commercially available anywhere? It isn’t listed in Combined Rose List 2006 and a web search didn’t turn anything up.


It’s pretty whatever it is. There is a note on HMF stating that the circulating cultivar is not the real thing. It almost looks like an OGR hybrid of some sort.

The flower form reminds me of the sempervirens hybrids. I really love the form on those blooms but I remember them stinking in a scent I hated. I doubt this rose is like that, though. It probably smells better.

I was able to get open pollinated seeds of Therese Bauer from the “Garden of Roses of Legend and Romance”, Ohio Agricultural Research and Development Center, Wooster, Ohio. The original plants there were donated by the Joseph J. Kern Nursery so I am confident that their Therese Bauer is the correct one.

I do not have a picture of the plant there.

Pictures of Therese Bauer and other rugosa hybrids may be accessed from the link below.

Link: www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/researchoperations/rosegarden/thumbs.asp?group=Rugosa

Thank you Peter for the link. I was not aware of its existence. As probably most of you have figured out, they have a link to their general list of rose pictures at:


Unfortunately the list does not include all of the roses that are grown there. Perhaps it is a “work in progress”.

Link: www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/researchoperations/rosegarden/list.asp

Hmmm… I thought I posted a response a day or two back, but it’s not here…

Anyhoo, I was also going to add Jean Lafitte to the setigera/pernetiana hybrids with nice form and no listed descendants.

Therese Bauer is very attractive, but I imagine that with that lineage, it would not be conducive to getting yellows into the mix very easily. I have no idea if the setigeras are as yellow-resistant as the rugosas. (Or is it simply that few have bothered attempting to breed yellow rugosas? I only know of a few.)

Is TB recurrent Henry? I would expect the offspring to be quite healthy, no?

And what about ploidy? Are the Set./Per. hybrids mules? Or is there potential for progeny?

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=18617

Philip, I think most of your questions regarding Therese Bauer are answered in my October 1 post.

I do not recall any disease in the open pollinated seedlings. I will have to check the complex seedlings.

Anyone who would like some Therese Bauer second generation open pollinated hips, please e-mail me with your address in a form that I can simply cut out and use as a mailing label.

Doubloons is a Hybrid Set. and is the beginning of one of the lines in modern yellows (the Allgold line).

I like how the buds on many of the hybrids have an old-world look to them. Is that hybrid perpetual influence or from R. set. itself?

I checked my complex Therese Bauer seedlings:

((Therese Bauer X OP) X Hawkeye Belle) X (Carmenetta X OP) .

Carmenetta is R. rubrifolia X R. rugosa. It is a tetraploid.

((Therese Bauer X OP) X Hawkeye Belle) X ((Delicata X OP) X (( Therese Bugnet X OP) X OP)) .

I suspect that (Delicata X OP) X (( Therese Bugnet X OP) X OP) is a tetraploid.

(Therese Bauer X OP) X mixed pollen .

and they are all good sized plants for their age and show very little evidence of disease (I do not spray).

None have yet flowered.

Sorry Henry. You did answer my questions. Thanks.

Jadae, I’ve been very interested in looking into more members of the Synstylae, and several roses of nice cabbagey form which appealed to me turned out to be derived from Setigera. The form is one of the things which caught my eye. Since setigera is our token North American representative of Synstylae, it intrigued me. I have never grown it, nor any first generation descendants. (I don’t know about more diluted descendants, but know of none in my garden today…)

Other Synstylae which intrigued me (based on reports and the literature) include R. helenae, and R. brunonii. Lens did a little work with Helenae, and Brunonii is a parent of Paul’s Himalayan Musk, but otherwise, I don’t know of any significant work being done with them either.

I wonder if one could dwarf repeaters like many of the other Synstylae? That would be pretty…

Dunno. Which cultivars come to your mind when you mention such?

Helenae and Brunonii (La Mortola) are considered very garden-worthy for species roses, massive size notwithstanding, but I don’t believe they have been used much in hybridizing. I’m rather surprised that the Setigeras appear to have been used more than these two. Perhaps because the prairie rose is a little more… ah… managable? (Not having grown any of these, but my impression is that R. set. is less than half the size of R. hel. or R. brun…) My impression is that asian species were experimented with prior to American, and to a larger extent… (??)

I don’t have information on hardiness offhand, but I imagine these Synstylae offer a certain amount of cold-hardiness as well…

I meant a dwarf Rosa setigera hybrid. Like instead of a The Fairy or Little White Pet for other Synstylaes.

I think the limited breeding may have been due to ploidy differences, availability and hardiness. I imagine it was along the lines of, “Why use X when we already have multiflora/wichurana/sempervirens?” combined with the thought of “Why use 2x when we can use the already 4x and hardy setigera?” Im just guessing here.

I was trying to think of a “fun” cross with Rosa setigera today. Something like Regensberg x(Rosa setigera x Baby Love)would be cool.

Also, this would be fun to look back at in terms of a purple climber:

I couldnt think of anything to cross it with, though =/

All right Jadae, I’ll bite. What attributes would your hypothetical Regensberg x(Rosa setigera x Baby Love) cross hopefully yield? (not that roses ever follow hypotheticals and hopes, in my experience…)

Erinnerung an Brod – are you considering it a setigera? I know nothing of R. rubifolia beyond what Helpmefind says…

On purple setigeras, per a search on Helpmefind…

Gem of the prairies, a purple offspring of the setigera “beauty of the prairies”, appears to have no china in it and isn’t recurrent. Pride of Washington and President Coolidge are interesting in despcription, though no photos and not much info…

But potential is definitely there…

Can anyone speak of disease-resistance in offspring as compared to Wichurianas??

I am assuming that Rosa rubrifolia is Rosa setigera in this case. The problem with Rosa rubrifolia is that it was a name for several, seperate species…

The only hopeful yeild is a small, mildew resistant, fairly winter hardy shrublet. Color yield could be quite variable. However, I believe it would be a good bridge for Rosa setigera into modern roses. I would prefer something with pelargonin rather than Regensberg but finding decent tetraploid dwarves that pass on their dwarfness is difficult. However, something like my “fun” cross would be interesting to cross back into modern mauve roses, too. I think it would work well.

R. rubifolia is an old name for R. setigera. (from Rubus, the genus for raspberries, because of the resemblance of the leaves of R. rubifolia to the leaves of Rubus). R. rubrifolia is something else.