I removed Mr. Lincoln last year after giving it more TLC that was not reciprocated, than any rose deserves. Two teas that have been absolutely above reproach for me have been Mojave and Ingrid Bergman. I’m definately in the Mr.Lincoln is over rated club. And yes, I did get a few good, very large and fragrant flowers per year, but that just isn’t enough.
I thought Mr. Lincoln was awful the first day I ever saw it, lol. I think the way that it grows is especially off-putting and not very useful. I could say the same of Oklahoma, which can a behemoth in the inner city of Portland where it can be found growing around older homes. I have always thought that exhibitors desie for long stems and over–sized blooms is a disservice to home owners and the general public because long stems and mammoth blooms often equate to slow repeat and awful aesthetic. Likewise, some clusters on some floribundas can take sooooo long to develop that the repeat bloom (and what I like to call “color per square inch”) suffers immensely.
These are all things to consider when breeding roses for the modern garden.
So Michael, what are your favorite HT types that you are currently using in breeding atm (if any)?
I happened to see a specimen of ‘Honey Dijon’ at Swane’s nursery (one of the biggest rose outlets here), and it literally cast a spell on me…it was truly magnificent…It had obviously been given all the TLC in the world, but it sure reciprocated!! Congratulations to you, Jim!
Solitaire is one of my favorites. I also may use American Honor, Over the Moon, Wild Blue Yonder, Fragrant Plum, Royal Amethyst and Remember Me. The three mauves are only “okay” in my book, but mauves need serious work to begin with. I dont really plan on any HT x HT crosses, though. I also plan on using some of my own HTs.
I’ll be asking a friend in California for pollen of Gardens of the World, too. It is a fairly healthy HT.
I WISH Pride of England was decently fertile. What few seeds I got from it as a pollen donor never germinated. So, I gave up on it. I’d use Selfridges if I still had access to it. I regret not trying Selfridges x Remember Me, Selfridges x Singin in the Rain or Selfridges x Livin Easy while I had the chance.
Jadae:
Maximizing the ‘color per square ft’ is a great goal. My daughter thought a few once blooming ramblers were “lame” until she was home while they were blooming this year. And she lacks the ‘freesia’ gene, meaning she is smell deficient, but had no problem smelling Blush Rambler in full bloom, and wondered if I was going to use it in any crosses. Lincoln (no fault of the rose) can’t hold a candle to those shows.
George:
My daughter is also under the spell of Honey Dijon–can’t believe I haven’t caved. And she has not even seen a really nicely grown one! Just can’t get enough of that sensational color.
Michael, thanks for sharing some of your HT ideas.
Jackie, I agree about HD, 100%!
‘Deep Secret’ looks like a delicious dark red HT…I can also see Robert N-R has used it a little in his breeding work.
I have had Deep Secret for a few years. It is pollen and seed fertile and germination is about average for H.T."s. This year I have used MR1 pollen on it and it looks like I will get quite a few hips. The fragrance is to die for and here in humid country it is more disease resistant than my other H.T.'s but some others have mentioned that it is not disease resistant for them. Good luck.
Patrick
‘Deep Secret’ was an easy parent in both directions for me. I’ve actually got a number of descendants.
I thought it was sensational. It could have repeated more and the growth habit was typical HT, but the color and fragrance were incredible. It never mildewed for me in my climate. Most descendants are also free of mildew so far.
I finally gave it away so I wouldn’t be tempted to use it further. I have to limit my exploration.
It was a winner for me. Mine was own-root from Sequoia Nursery.
I believe Velvet Fragrance is DS x Fragrant Cloud (or some such). I grew it for about 7 years. It was very healthy, vigorous, upright and happy. It bloomed a lot. It was fragrant but it had one huge con – the petals fried in heat. I later replaced it with Firefighter, which was moderate in every category possible lol.
George and Jackie, thank you for the nice comments about ‘Honey Dijon’. It looks good in our drier California climate, but I am sure that it had to have some “help” to look its best at Swane’s. Unfortunately, it does get black spot.
Jim Sproul
So, George, for example, Rosa canina x Baby Love had some buds on it that I harvested to force in a vase indoors as to make sure I do not lose the pollen. The buds appear to be yellow and salmon/coral toned – probably semi-double by the sense of touch. If Solitaire was blooming now, which it is not (needs about 10 more days), I would put it on that. However, Toprose and Royal Amethyst are, so they will be what is used. HT’s can serve as a nice bridge for qualities not found easily elsewhere. Toprose and Solitaire will throw climbers, most likely due to their rubiginosa heritage. Theyve both done it repeatedly for me. I am guessing that Royal Amethyst will too since both of its parents have climbing sports.
I guess my overall point is that any class could have viable options for one’s goals. So, even though HT’s do not always have the finest garden qualities, they may have some qualities worth retaining.
Michael, the point you are making about how classes of roses (eg. HT’s) can be used to one’s advantage, based on knowledge of how they breed (and/or sport) seems a great strategic point to make at this stage of this thread…it is “thinking outside the square”, which I love.
I am not sure it is completely thinking anew – just an updated version of it.
It will be nice when modern roses are more fairly diversified in terms of generalized class, color, hardiness and health as a whole. In life, I have always thought that options are king. I visited Moscow, Idaho and Pullman, Washington last weekend the day after Mother’s Day. That area is much colder than it is here. I was happy to see some random landscape rugosas used but the only other roses I saw being used were pure species stright into the landscape – Rosa rubiginosa and Rosa glauca. Some home owners, of course, had some old HTs barely surviving. But that really isnt the picture of a landscape. I thought it was completely depressing. They definitely have wayyyyyyyyy more options than that. It was especially more depressing knowing that both towns have colleges that have landscape, horticulture and plant science. In other words, the options that even exist today could have been employed. The overall picture there was black or white in terms of rose selections. There’s definitely an entire grey scale of choice between species and HT now.
‘Elina’ is a HT that in my warm humid coastal climate is miles ahead of most other HT’s of its era, in terms of health and repeat flowering… it sets no OP hips. Yes it gets some BS, but it is quite acceptable with only lower leaf defoliation.
The foliage is beautiful and plentiful, and the flowers are enormous, and the bush when established reaches 6 foot and over…at the moment, one local specimen living in a relative’s yard, is covered in a magnificent lemon yellow autumn flush…a striking sight visible from the end of the street.
I believe it does poorly in extreme heat, but this is to be expected of a lot of HT’s anyway.
Elina is one of the best here. I am unsure of its hardiness, though, as it is 1/4 Golden Wave.
Like Jackie, I too am a sucker for Ingrid Bergman flowers…they are so HUGE and high centred…almost a “rose impossibility” for me…I also love Aotearoa and Fragrant Cloud for their fragrance…I have no idea about these as breeders tho…
Ingrid Bergman apparently never sold much here in Sydney, even things like Gemini are not making great sales either, when they are compared to tree-budded Icebergs.
Fragrant Cloud is usually a better pollen parent. It will sometimes set hips for some people, but it can be finicky. Fragrant Cloud is one of my favorites of the older HTs.
I think Gemini is an awful parent. It often breeds blackspot and awkward growth. I personally wouldnt use anything one generation away from New Year. New Year has great color, vigor and plant shape, but its equally prone to die back, mildew and backspot. It passes the latter two traits on easily. Gemini in itself is a bit of an anomoly. New Years color is great, but it is from the 1980s and there are newer true orange roses now (like Livin Easy, among many others).
Ingrid Bergman is an equally finicky hip setter. Also, it bull noses like no tomorrow. You’d be better off using Opening Night as a parent. It sets seed and gives pollen equally well. It has the plant habit of Olympiad and the color of Ingrid Bergman. Opening Night is what I’d use if I wanted something like Coffee Bean as an HT (ie. Opening Night x Hot Cocoa or Opening Night x Remember Me).
oh, really?!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, Michael.