How big an eye?

Theoretically, how big can a hulthemia blotch possibly get to??

… very interesting to me!

…errr I mean how big in terms of % of total available petal area.

Of course you’ve seen this on Jim’s blog, right?

Absolutely!

That CV has also featured here somewhere, but I thought I’d open a new thread, as I am interested in pushing envelopes and going into unknown zones…it is mainly that sort of adventure (i.e. into unknown horizons) I think that actually really excites me!!

…and therefore I draw inspiration from things like Jim’s hulthemia projects, (…errr… and things like Fara’s spotted/marbled types as well–tho not to do with this thread’s immediate subject matter as such).

Jim,

Reading your blog about the interaction of striping and the Hulthemia spot, I remembered something a bit similar.

Lawrence (1931) Genetics & Cytology of Dahlia Variabilis. J Genet 24:257-301

"In mosaics (streaks) the distribution of anthocyanin is discontinuous. The flavone ground of the rays is never mosaic.

“Both pale and deep pigments may be mosaic, but the pale anthocyanin is never mosaic unless mosaic deep anthocyanin is present. All the pale individuals are self-coloured, and crossed between themselves and with normal-coloured forms never give mosaics.”

Iris breeders also deal with the puzzling inheritance of the Pumila spot, derived from Iris pumila and some of its kin.

Have you (or anyone) tried combining the Hulthemia spot with the “hand painted” trait?

Karl

There is an interesting case in pansies of two traits, developed independently, that were combined. One was the “belted” trait that put a band of color around the petals. The other was the “blotch”, where the black rays seem to have “bled” color. Both traits evolved in the 1830s.

Dean: The Early History of the Pansy (1893)

Both traits were variable: the blotch could be small or eventually made to cover the whole petal. The belt, likewise, could be broad or narrow. ‘Blue Fringe’, for instance, had both a blotch and a narrow belt.

So, I’m wondering whether the Hulthemia blotch might be combined with a picotee pattern, like the one in ‘Handel’, or with the “hand painted” pattern (e.g., ‘Picasso’) that sometimes appears as a blotch in the middle of the petal.

Karl

Karl wrote:

He didn’t get that far with Hulthemia, but that’s what Ralph sought with Halo Rainbow, which he called a ‘double rainbow’. That was his stated goal with Persian Flame, though not really the desired result. He liked the heatlh, vigor, fertility and coloring of Playboy in his climate. So far, Persian Flame doesn’t exhibit the rust proclivity in this climate (thankfully!).

I think I got Persian Flame pollen to stick on a diploid… finally.

Regarding handpainteds-- even down in generations, the lighter reverse and white halo is strong. Inversely, the commercial persica types seem to have a darker reverse, the dark eye, and some yellowing/peaching around that eye. Even though handpainteds have the broken petal architecture to make handpainteds and stripes wonderful, this trait seems counter to persica color architecture. With that said, some sort of intermediate seems plausible. I’d test this theory with something similar to Blason Sunflor.

Kim,

‘Halo Rainbow’ and ‘Persian Autumn’ are pretty close to what I was thinking, about combining a blotch (of whatever origin) with a border. Now, if such could be combined with a ruffled or crinkled edge to the petal …

Karl

I have a seedling, TC-10-01 which is: Toy Clown x (1-72-1 × L83), that has the first buds on it. If the resulting seedling retains the picotee edge I had been toying with the idea of crossing it with Eyeconic Lemonade and Eyeconic Pink Lemonade. The hope would be to end up with a red eye and pink picotee edged seedling. As far as how big an eye…as big as possible. :slight_smile:

The hulthemia eye-spot can be difficult to detect sometimes.

This seedling is from Jim’s seed (OPK206) and the blotch is there but is tiny:

[attachment 847 opk206b3.jpg]

[attachment 848 opk206B8.jpg]

I kept this seedling because I felt at the time that its siblings displayed such a prominent eye-spot and it appeared the eye-spot was being obliterated by some regional influence and might actually, genetically, be a decent blotch, behind the white/cream. It’s also quite pretty in itself and quite a good plant too.

This other seedling from the same batch of seed also shows a ‘claw influence’:

[attachment 849 OPK206D-1.jpg]

I really like this effect.

The last one to flower here this year was this one:

[attachment 850 OPK206-C2.jpg]

[attachment 851 OPK206-C1.jpg]

Maybe there is a blotch on these ones too??? I think it is pretty clear, however, that the claw region can easily ‘over-ride’ pretty much all expression of pigment.

Hi George,

How big? I am suspecting that ultimately the blotch could cover the whole petal surface. So far some of the blotches cover well over 60% of the length of the petal. That is for discrete type blotches.

Blotches are definitely variable in their presentations, see A Brief Study of Hulthemia Petal Color Distribution.

Some have what appear to be discrete blotches at the base of the petal, but then seem to “break out” of the limiting edge of the blotch and streak out across the petal, in some cases up to the petal tips. Others, rather than streaking, seem to blend gradually into the rest of the petal color, and in cooler weather, can be seen to go well out onto the petal. In other seedlings there isn’t just a single blotch, but another lighter blotch further out, something like a double rainbow.

Hi Karl,

No, I haven’t tested any crosses with the Hand Painted McGredy types, but I do think that I have an ‘Old Master’ that I should dabble with next year. I have hesitated doing too much breeding with that group because many of them exhibit unusual smaller, yellowing foliage in the heat of our summer. I don’t know what causes it, but I don’t want to get it mixed into my breeding lines.

It would be interesting to find out the affect of different temperatures in a cross between the blotch and the hand painted types since the blotch is larger and more intense in cooler weather (and with some Hulthemia selections disappears in the heat), while the hand painteds show the lighter fringe in cooler weather and lose the hand painted effect in the heat with a solid color petal. How those two traits would interact would be quite interesting. There are some Hulthemia seedlings that look a bit like ‘Halo Rainbow’, having a darker central blotch and darker petal edge. Pomegranate Lemonade sometimes has that effect.

Hi Simon,

To me it looks like all of the other K206 OP seedlings that you are showing have the blotch. There is definitely something interesting going on with the blotch portion of the petals with regard to color pigment. In your last photo, with a magnifying glass, I think that you would see some pigmented “dots”. I don’t know what is going on, but in many of the Hulthemias, the darkly pigmented areas seem to be a confluence of small “dots”, almost like the dots in news print that make images rather than a smooth coloration of the petal. It may be the same effect of what is seen along the edge of the hand painted roses…?

Something that I have had my eye out for is a reverse blotch - but I haven’t seen even a hint of a blotch on the reverse side of the petals. They are almost always lighter in color.

This will be a fun group to explore. I suspect that all of the variations are due to interaction with various rose genes.

How big? I am suspecting that ultimately the blotch could cover the whole petal surface

… yes, that is also my suspicion.

…and if that is possible, I suspect that a jumbo large blotch size factor in itself might possibly bring an amazing group of super-persica roses !!

Can’t wait to see such !!!

Carry on the novel work y’all … LOL…

Eh, I gave in… I did another persica cross. It was Dreaming Spires x mixed pollen this time. I kinda want to see eyes popping up 10’ into the air lol.

I WANT a Mermaid with a huge, red eye, like a climbing hibiscus.

I’ve got something like that planned for spring. I’ll be putting the eye-spot on ‘Nancy Hayward’

Mermaid rules