Last year I collected about 50 OP seeds of Honorine de Brabant, and to date two have germinated. Growing slowly but healthy so far.
While they grow I have been scouring this forum and HMF for information about HdB and CB, and I am confused.
Honorine is reputed to be a sport of Commandant Beaurepaire, but as flagged by AquaEyes in the HMF comments there seems to be a ploidy difference, so probably HdB is a seedling of CB, not a sport.
My main question is about the lack of descendants listed on HMF. I read multiple comments on this forum about how Commandant Beaurepaire is good at transmitting stripes. However, HMF lists zero descendants for CB, and even HdB has only one listed descendant, Moore’s Muriel Humenick, which incidentally is not striped. So how did they get their reputation of being good sources of stripes?
More broadly, can anyone tell me about any descendants of HdB or CB they have bred or know about ? Do their seedlings have health issues? Can juvenile bloom be expected?
I am sure I am missing pieces of the puzzle. Do they have any drawbacks that explain the apparent lack of breeding activity with them?
Very curious to understand these things better.
Last year I collected about 50 OP seeds of Honorine de Brabant, and to date two have germinated. Growing slowly but healthy so far.
You should also probably notice that Golden Angel, the only listed mate to a successful use of HdB, is a fertile triploid, so Muriel Humenick could easily not be a straight half and half cross. Others may have succeeded in breeding stripes from Brabant, but to date, the ONLY documented source of heritable stripes is Ferdinand Pichard. I can’t attest to how offspring from Brabant may perform as I’ve not raised any. I tried Brabant twice and found it quickly became an ENORMOUS mountain of milder and rust in my climate and it flowered so little for the plant size, it wasn’t worth the room and water.
Thank you @roseseek! I’m sorry to hear the HdB seedlings were so sick. Rust hasn’t been a problem here but I definitely will keep an eye out for mildew.
Unfortunately the older posts on this forum show up as "Anonymous " so I can’t tell who posted it, but one of the mentions of seedlings inheriting stripes from them was here:
(I hope that link works!)
Unfortunately, I have no idea who that was, and they didn’t provide any further details.
Yes, that is a “claim”, but still, the ONLY “documented” striping source remains Ferdinand Pichard. Mr. Moore selected that rose for exploration because, as he told me, it was the only striped rose which was not listed as a mutation of a solid variety. He felt it offered the greatest potential for actually being a seedling and having transmissible striping. It took many seedlings and a lot of selection, but he proved his hypothesis.
Thank you so much @roseseek . I will keep my stripe expectations low, especially considering how few germinations there have been. If the seedlings can only be healthy and survive the summer spidermite attacks, that will be good enough for me.
As an aside: how wonderful it is that you had the connection with Ralph Moore. I feel like his contributions aren’t valued enough here in Europe where among the general public his work is hardly known at all, when his roses could have been so successful here, especially his minis with the many container gardeners in our small urban gardens. The more I read about his work and the more I grow to admire it. You were very lucky to get his insight directly, and I am very lucky that you share yours here.
Thank you. Many of us were fortunate that Mr. Moore generously shared his observations and discoveries with us, knowing he was “planting seeds” and the only way his knowledge would survive him was to share it and hope we would build upon it and share his and ours. You have to share to not only keep it alive but help yourself remember it. If you don’t pass it along, you forget.
Kim, can you say how persistent or reliable CB is at passing along stripes? I already have him in my garden, and not much room to raise a thousand seedlings, but if you told me 1 in 10 might have some striping…then I might be tempted to try. Thanks.
Sorry, Lee, I can’t as I’ve not raised seedlings from it, nor have I read any results claimed to have originated from it. Bourbons, in general, HATED the climates I tried growing them in, so why would I waste my time and energies on trying to breed from them?
Kinda hoping Ralph might have passed along one of his secrets to you Thanks all the same.
The only thing he ever released from its pollen was Muriel Humenick and, as I previously wrote, that’s likely to be a really odd combination due to the triploid Golden Angel seed parent. Mr. Moore would pimp pollen all over the place and he raised millions of seedlings. There were houses FULL of really nasty stuff… terrible architecture; terrible foliage; huge, rangy monsters, most of which seldom, if ever, flowered and when they did, they were nothing to be excited over. He would hang on to stuff like that to see if there was anything of worth in them. I don’t know if Muriel Humenick was the best he obtained from the cross, or the ONLY thing he obtained from it. I do think it speaks volumes of the line to observe the ONLY descendant from CB is its sport HdB and the ONLY descendant from CdB is MH. Golden Angel does some rather remarkable things, as do Torch of Liberty (GA X Orangeade) and Lynnie (TOL X Basye’s Legacy), and they are also fertile triploids.
I could not find any crosses with CB or the parentage.
This is what I found for DdB:
Mme Scipion Cochet, Anna Oliver x DdB, 1872 T
Mme Joseph Swartz, aka White DdB, sport, 1880T
Souv de Victor Hugo, DdB x Regulus, 1886T
Comtesse Riza du Parc, 1876 seedling.
BTW, Singer in 1885 says CB is the same as Panachee d’Angers. Steve
Thank you for the information about CB potentially being Panachée d’Angers Steve!
Regarding your other post, Honorine de Brabant and Duchesse de Brabant are two different roses. Duchesse is not striped.
I am confused about another rose: Variegata di Bologna. She seems to pass on stripes too since HMF records several striped offspring for her. Is Variegata descended from Commandant Beaurepaire too? According to the dates on HMF, Variegata seems to have been bred before Commandant. Is this inaccurate? Do they share a common ancestor?
If you look at the Comments section of HMF, an early record of the parentage of ‘Variegata di Bologna’ is revealed–it is a seedling from a cross between an unknown rose and a striped rose (‘Pride of Reigate’) that arose as a sport of another, unstriped variety descended from ‘Victor Verdier’. It is possible to get striped seedlings from breeding with ‘Variegata di Bologna’ (maybe not all that productively), but it didn’t cooperate when I tried pollinating it. You have to dig deep for the anthers, but they have a fair amount of pollen. For the trouble of dismantling those beautiful, fragrant blossoms, the petals do make wonderfully scented striped potpourri as they dry.
One of my two seedlings of OP HdB started blooming in mid-June, and hasn’t stopped since. No stripes, but a healthy, fragrant, well-branched rose that doesn’t seem to mind the current heatwave at all.
The other seedling is less healthy and hasn’t bloomed. I’ll probably end up culling it since I am not interested in keeping anything that doesn’t carry juvenile bloom genes, but I 'll keep it until late fall out of curiosity.
I am letting Honorine develop OP hips again this year; I hope the germination rate will be better than the previous batch.
(I thought I sent this off some time back. Just noticed that it jammed in my sender.)
CB was not a born rebloomer. It had to be “trained”, like Gen Jacqeminot and and American Beauty. The rebloom tendency is in there but must be coaxed out.
Journal des Roses (May 1882)
ROSE PANACHÉE D’ANGERS
Ou COMMANDANT BEAUREPAIRE (remontant)
La rose panachée d’Angers, appelée aussi Commandant Beaurepaire, dont nous publions aujourd’hui la gravure coloriée, a été obtenue par M. Moreau-Robert, rosiériste des plus avantageusement connu, à Angers (Maine-et-Loire), qui a bien voulu nous adresser la notice suivante
« Feu M. Vibert, avait obtenu vers 1845, un rosier porte-graines, hybride remontant, panaché, à fleurs simples, qui produisit plus tard, en 1856, l’hybride remontant Belle Angevine, à fleurs panachées et pleines, mais peu vigoureux.
« Le rosier Commandant Beaurepaire, est issu do ce même porte-graine. Semé, en 1864, le pied qui donna naissance à cette variété, se développa la première année, avec une vigueur extraordinaire. La seconde année, sa végétation luxuriante le faisait ressembler à un Bancksiana; ses rameaux mesuraient jusqu’à trois et quatre mètres de longueur.
« J’ai, la troisième année, recourbé tous ces grands rameaux qui me donnèrent quelques fleurs, et j’eus soin de ne prendre que ceux-ci pour la greffe, et cela pendant quatre ou cinq ans.
« Enfin, vers 1872, la végétation étant tout à fait modérée, mon espoir fut d’amener cette variété à devenir remontante. Après trois années d’attente, désespérant de pouvoir réussir, et sollicité par un grand nombre d’amateurs de livrer cette belle plante au commerce, je m’y décidai.
« La difficulté était de classer cette variété.
« Assurément sa place eut été aux hybrides incertaines; mais ces dernières ayant presque toutes disparu des cultures, je préférai les Provins, n’espérant plus la voir parfaitement remonter un jour.
« Mais voilà qu’en 1876, après le pinçage du printemps, quarante à cinquante sujets me donnèrent des fleurs dans le cours de l’été et le même fait se reproduisit en 1877 et 1878.
« Je reconnus alors que je m’étais trop pressé de classer cette plante et je me décidai à la reclasser aux hybrides remontants, sous le nom de Panachée d’Angers. en prévenant par un nota ajouté à sa description, que cette variété était le commandant Beaurepaire, rendu parfaitement remontant.
« Je désire vivement lui voir conserver son nom d’hybride remontant: Panachée d’Angers, qu’elle mérite véritablement. Le rosier Panachée d’Angers, est un arbuste très vigoureux, à fleurs moyennes, pleines, rose tendre, très bien panachées, et marbrées de pourpre et de violet.
«C’est une variété très recommandable.
C’est donc par erreur que nous avons imprimé au-dessous de la gravure le nom de Commandant Beaurepaire (Provins). Il faut lire: Hybride Remontant Panachée d’Angers.
The rose Panachée d’Angers, also called Commandant Beaurepaire, of which we publish today a colored engraving, was obtained by Mr. Moreau-Robert, the well known rosarian, of Angers (Maine-et-Loire), who agreed to address the following note to us:
The late M. Vibert, had obtained about 1845, a seed-bearing rose, hybrid remontant, with single flowers, which produced later, in 1856, the hybrid remontant Belle Angevine, with striped and full flowers, but not very vigorous.
The rose Commandant Beaurepaire, is resulting from this same seed-bearer. Sown, in 1864, the seedling which gave rise to this variety, grew the first year, with an extraordinary strength. The second year, its luxuriant vegetation made it resemble Bancksiana; its branches measured between three and four meters in length.
I have, the third year, bent all these large branches which gave me some flowers, and I have been careful to take only those for the graft, and that during four or five years.
Finally, about 1872, the vegetation being completely moderated, my hope was to lead this variety to become remontant. After three years of attempts, despairing of success, and solicited by a great number of amateurs to deliver this beautiful plant to the trade, I agreed.
The difficulty was to classify this variety.
Undoubtedly its place was with the doubtful hybrids; but these last having almost all disappeared from culture, I preferred the Provins, still hoping to see it perfectly remontant some day.
But then in 1876, after the end of spring, forty or fifty specimens gave me flowers in the course of the summer and the same fact repeated in 1877 and 1878.
I recognized I had been much too hasty to classify this plant and I decided to reclassify it with the hybrids remontants, under the name of Panachée d’ Angers, while warning by a foot-note added to its description, that this variety was the Commandant Beaurepaire, rendered perfectly remontant.
I highly wish to see it preserving its name of hybrid remontant: Panachée d’ Angers, which it truly deserves. The rose Panachée d’ Angers, is a very vigorous shrub, with medium flowers, full, tender, very striped, and marbled pink crimson and purple.
It is a very remarkable variety.
And it stands to reason that the reblooming tendency can also be lost through sloppy propagation. That’s what I believe has happened to mine…perhaps 2 or 3 stray late blooms in the last three years
That’s what Dr. J.H. Nicholas reported in A Rose Odyssey, 1937. He recounts how J&P had obtained bud wood of General Jacqueminot from the nephew of its raiser who had “worked” the stock until it was nearly the “quality of a Hybrid Tea”, to replenish their stock of it. Reportedly, “General Jack” had nearly been destroyed, as had the majority of HPs in the US, through “injudicious bud selection”, resulting in plants which “ran rampant” with little bloom. How accurate that is, is up for debate but it is widely understood that in order to prevent propagating “degenerative mutations”, only cuttings from recently shattered perfect blooms should be used. Mutations are frequently propagated due to lack of attention or lack of care or skill. Make of it what you will.