Last year I collected about 50 OP seeds of Honorine de Brabant, and to date two have germinated. Growing slowly but healthy so far.
While they grow I have been scouring this forum and HMF for information about HdB and CB, and I am confused.
Honorine is reputed to be a sport of Commandant Beaurepaire, but as flagged by AquaEyes in the HMF comments there seems to be a ploidy difference, so probably HdB is a seedling of CB, not a sport.
My main question is about the lack of descendants listed on HMF. I read multiple comments on this forum about how Commandant Beaurepaire is good at transmitting stripes. However, HMF lists zero descendants for CB, and even HdB has only one listed descendant, Mooreâs Muriel Humenick, which incidentally is not striped. So how did they get their reputation of being good sources of stripes?
More broadly, can anyone tell me about any descendants of HdB or CB they have bred or know about ? Do their seedlings have health issues? Can juvenile bloom be expected?
I am sure I am missing pieces of the puzzle. Do they have any drawbacks that explain the apparent lack of breeding activity with them?
Very curious to understand these things better.
You should also probably notice that Golden Angel, the only listed mate to a successful use of HdB, is a fertile triploid, so Muriel Humenick could easily not be a straight half and half cross. Others may have succeeded in breeding stripes from Brabant, but to date, the ONLY documented source of heritable stripes is Ferdinand Pichard. I canât attest to how offspring from Brabant may perform as Iâve not raised any. I tried Brabant twice and found it quickly became an ENORMOUS mountain of milder and rust in my climate and it flowered so little for the plant size, it wasnât worth the room and water.
Thank you @roseseek! Iâm sorry to hear the HdB seedlings were so sick. Rust hasnât been a problem here but I definitely will keep an eye out for mildew.
Unfortunately the older posts on this forum show up as "Anonymous " so I canât tell who posted it, but one of the mentions of seedlings inheriting stripes from them was here:
(I hope that link works!)
Unfortunately, I have no idea who that was, and they didnât provide any further details.
Yes, that is a âclaimâ, but still, the ONLY âdocumentedâ striping source remains Ferdinand Pichard. Mr. Moore selected that rose for exploration because, as he told me, it was the only striped rose which was not listed as a mutation of a solid variety. He felt it offered the greatest potential for actually being a seedling and having transmissible striping. It took many seedlings and a lot of selection, but he proved his hypothesis.
Thank you so much @roseseek . I will keep my stripe expectations low, especially considering how few germinations there have been. If the seedlings can only be healthy and survive the summer spidermite attacks, that will be good enough for me.
As an aside: how wonderful it is that you had the connection with Ralph Moore. I feel like his contributions arenât valued enough here in Europe where among the general public his work is hardly known at all, when his roses could have been so successful here, especially his minis with the many container gardeners in our small urban gardens. The more I read about his work and the more I grow to admire it. You were very lucky to get his insight directly, and I am very lucky that you share yours here.
Thank you. Many of us were fortunate that Mr. Moore generously shared his observations and discoveries with us, knowing he was âplanting seedsâ and the only way his knowledge would survive him was to share it and hope we would build upon it and share his and ours. You have to share to not only keep it alive but help yourself remember it. If you donât pass it along, you forget.
Kim, can you say how persistent or reliable CB is at passing along stripes? I already have him in my garden, and not much room to raise a thousand seedlings, but if you told me 1 in 10 might have some stripingâŠthen I might be tempted to try. Thanks.
Sorry, Lee, I canât as Iâve not raised seedlings from it, nor have I read any results claimed to have originated from it. Bourbons, in general, HATED the climates I tried growing them in, so why would I waste my time and energies on trying to breed from them?
Kinda hoping Ralph might have passed along one of his secrets to you 
Thanks all the same.
The only thing he ever released from its pollen was Muriel Humenick and, as I previously wrote, thatâs likely to be a really odd combination due to the triploid Golden Angel seed parent. Mr. Moore would pimp pollen all over the place and he raised millions of seedlings. There were houses FULL of really nasty stuff⊠terrible architecture; terrible foliage; huge, rangy monsters, most of which seldom, if ever, flowered and when they did, they were nothing to be excited over. He would hang on to stuff like that to see if there was anything of worth in them. I donât know if Muriel Humenick was the best he obtained from the cross, or the ONLY thing he obtained from it. I do think it speaks volumes of the line to observe the ONLY descendant from CB is its sport HdB and the ONLY descendant from CdB is MH. Golden Angel does some rather remarkable things, as do Torch of Liberty (GA X Orangeade) and Lynnie (TOL X Basyeâs Legacy), and they are also fertile triploids.
I could not find any crosses with CB or the parentage.
This is what I found for DdB:
Mme Scipion Cochet, Anna Oliver x DdB, 1872 T
Mme Joseph Swartz, aka White DdB, sport, 1880T
Souv de Victor Hugo, DdB x Regulus, 1886T
Comtesse Riza du Parc, 1876 seedling.
Steve
BTW, Singer in 1885 says CB is the same as Panachee dâAngers. 
Steve
Thank you for the information about CB potentially being PanachĂ©e dâAngers Steve!
Regarding your other post, Honorine de Brabant and Duchesse de Brabant are two different roses. Duchesse is not striped.
I am confused about another rose: Variegata di Bologna. She seems to pass on stripes too since HMF records several striped offspring for her. Is Variegata descended from Commandant Beaurepaire too? According to the dates on HMF, Variegata seems to have been bred before Commandant. Is this inaccurate? Do they share a common ancestor?
If you look at the Comments section of HMF, an early record of the parentage of âVariegata di Bolognaâ is revealedâit is a seedling from a cross between an unknown rose and a striped rose (âPride of Reigateâ) that arose as a sport of another, unstriped variety descended from âVictor Verdierâ. It is possible to get striped seedlings from breeding with âVariegata di Bolognaâ (maybe not all that productively), but it didnât cooperate when I tried pollinating it. You have to dig deep for the anthers, but they have a fair amount of pollen. For the trouble of dismantling those beautiful, fragrant blossoms, the petals do make wonderfully scented striped potpourri as they dry.
Stefan
One of my two seedlings of OP HdB started blooming in mid-June, and hasnât stopped since. No stripes, but a healthy, fragrant, well-branched rose that doesnât seem to mind the current heatwave at all.
The other seedling is less healthy and hasnât bloomed. Iâll probably end up culling it since I am not interested in keeping anything that doesnât carry juvenile bloom genes, but I 'll keep it until late fall out of curiosity.
I am letting Honorine develop OP hips again this year; I hope the germination rate will be better than the previous batch.
(I thought I sent this off some time back. Just noticed that it jammed in my sender.)
CB was not a born rebloomer. It had to be âtrainedâ, like Gen Jacqeminot and and American Beauty. The rebloom tendency is in there but must be coaxed out.
Journal des Roses (May 1882)
ROSE PANACHĂE DâANGERS
Ou COMMANDANT BEAUREPAIRE (remontant)
La rose panachĂ©e dâAngers, appelĂ©e aussi Commandant Beaurepaire, dont nous publions aujourdâhui la gravure coloriĂ©e, a Ă©tĂ© obtenue par M. Moreau-Robert, rosiĂ©riste des plus avantageusement connu, Ă Angers (Maine-et-Loire), qui a bien voulu nous adresser la notice suivante
« Feu M. Vibert, avait obtenu vers 1845, un rosier porte-graines, hybride remontant, panachĂ©, Ă fleurs simples, qui produisit plus tard, en 1856, lâhybride remontant Belle Angevine, Ă fleurs panachĂ©es et pleines, mais peu vigoureux.
« Le rosier Commandant Beaurepaire, est issu do ce mĂȘme porte-graine. SemĂ©, en 1864, le pied qui donna naissance Ă cette variĂ©tĂ©, se dĂ©veloppa la premiĂšre annĂ©e, avec une vigueur extraordinaire. La seconde annĂ©e, sa vĂ©gĂ©tation luxuriante le faisait ressembler Ă un Bancksiana; ses rameaux mesuraient jusquâĂ trois et quatre mĂštres de longueur.
« Jâai, la troisiĂšme annĂ©e, recourbĂ© tous ces grands rameaux qui me donnĂšrent quelques fleurs, et jâeus soin de ne prendre que ceux-ci pour la greffe, et cela pendant quatre ou cinq ans.
« Enfin, vers 1872, la vĂ©gĂ©tation Ă©tant tout Ă fait modĂ©rĂ©e, mon espoir fut dâamener cette variĂ©tĂ© Ă devenir remontante. AprĂšs trois annĂ©es dâattente, dĂ©sespĂ©rant de pouvoir rĂ©ussir, et sollicitĂ© par un grand nombre dâamateurs de livrer cette belle plante au commerce, je mây dĂ©cidai.
« La difficulté était de classer cette variété.
« AssurĂ©ment sa place eut Ă©tĂ© aux hybrides incertaines; mais ces derniĂšres ayant presque toutes disparu des cultures, je prĂ©fĂ©rai les Provins, nâespĂ©rant plus la voir parfaitement remonter un jour.
« Mais voilĂ quâen 1876, aprĂšs le pinçage du printemps, quarante Ă cinquante sujets me donnĂšrent des fleurs dans le cours de lâĂ©tĂ© et le mĂȘme fait se reproduisit en 1877 et 1878.
« Je reconnus alors que je mâĂ©tais trop pressĂ© de classer cette plante et je me dĂ©cidai Ă la reclasser aux hybrides remontants, sous le nom de PanachĂ©e dâAngers. en prĂ©venant par un nota ajoutĂ© Ă sa description, que cette variĂ©tĂ© Ă©tait le commandant Beaurepaire, rendu parfaitement remontant.
« Je dĂ©sire vivement lui voir conserver son nom dâhybride remontant: PanachĂ©e dâAngers, quâelle mĂ©rite vĂ©ritablement. Le rosier PanachĂ©e dâAngers, est un arbuste trĂšs vigoureux, Ă fleurs moyennes, pleines, rose tendre, trĂšs bien panachĂ©es, et marbrĂ©es de pourpre et de violet.
«Câest une variĂ©tĂ© trĂšs recommandable.
« MOREAU-ROBERT.»
Câest donc par erreur que nous avons imprimĂ© au-dessous de la gravure le nom de Commandant Beaurepaire (Provins). Il faut lire: Hybride Remontant PanachĂ©e dâAngers.
RĂDACTION.
Babelfish translation
The rose PanachĂ©e dâAngers, also called Commandant Beaurepaire, of which we publish today a colored engraving, was obtained by Mr. Moreau-Robert, the well known rosarian, of Angers (Maine-et-Loire), who agreed to address the following note to us:
The late M. Vibert, had obtained about 1845, a seed-bearing rose, hybrid remontant, with single flowers, which produced later, in 1856, the hybrid remontant Belle Angevine, with striped and full flowers, but not very vigorous.
The rose Commandant Beaurepaire, is resulting from this same seed-bearer. Sown, in 1864, the seedling which gave rise to this variety, grew the first year, with an extraordinary strength. The second year, its luxuriant vegetation made it resemble Bancksiana; its branches measured between three and four meters in length.
I have, the third year, bent all these large branches which gave me some flowers, and I have been careful to take only those for the graft, and that during four or five years.
Finally, about 1872, the vegetation being completely moderated, my hope was to lead this variety to become remontant. After three years of attempts, despairing of success, and solicited by a great number of amateurs to deliver this beautiful plant to the trade, I agreed.
The difficulty was to classify this variety.
Undoubtedly its place was with the doubtful hybrids; but these last having almost all disappeared from culture, I preferred the Provins, still hoping to see it perfectly remontant some day.
But then in 1876, after the end of spring, forty or fifty specimens gave me flowers in the course of the summer and the same fact repeated in 1877 and 1878.
I recognized I had been much too hasty to classify this plant and I decided to reclassify it with the hybrids remontants, under the name of PanachĂ©e dâ Angers, while warning by a foot-note added to its description, that this variety was the Commandant Beaurepaire, rendered perfectly remontant.
I highly wish to see it preserving its name of hybrid remontant: PanachĂ©e dâ Angers, which it truly deserves. The rose PanachĂ©e dâ Angers, is a very vigorous shrub, with medium flowers, full, tender, very striped, and marbled pink crimson and purple.
It is a very remarkable variety.
Moreau-Robert
And it stands to reason that the reblooming tendency can also be lost through sloppy propagation. Thatâs what I believe has happened to mineâŠperhaps 2 or 3 stray late blooms in the last three years
Thatâs what Dr. J.H. Nicholas reported in A Rose Odyssey, 1937. He recounts how J&P had obtained bud wood of General Jacqueminot from the nephew of its raiser who had âworkedâ the stock until it was nearly the âquality of a Hybrid Teaâ, to replenish their stock of it. Reportedly, âGeneral Jackâ had nearly been destroyed, as had the majority of HPs in the US, through âinjudicious bud selectionâ, resulting in plants which âran rampantâ with little bloom. How accurate that is, is up for debate but it is widely understood that in order to prevent propagating âdegenerative mutationsâ, only cuttings from recently shattered perfect blooms should be used. Mutations are frequently propagated due to lack of attention or lack of care or skill. Make of it what you will.