Honorine de Brabant/Commandant Beaurepaire descendants

Last year I collected about 50 OP seeds of Honorine de Brabant, and to date two have germinated. Growing slowly but healthy so far.
While they grow I have been scouring this forum and HMF for information about HdB and CB, and I am confused.
Honorine is reputed to be a sport of Commandant Beaurepaire, but as flagged by AquaEyes in the HMF comments there seems to be a ploidy difference, so probably HdB is a seedling of CB, not a sport.
My main question is about the lack of descendants listed on HMF. I read multiple comments on this forum about how Commandant Beaurepaire is good at transmitting stripes. However, HMF lists zero descendants for CB, and even HdB has only one listed descendant, Moore’s Muriel Humenick, which incidentally is not striped. So how did they get their reputation of being good sources of stripes?
More broadly, can anyone tell me about any descendants of HdB or CB they have bred or know about ? Do their seedlings have health issues? Can juvenile bloom be expected?
I am sure I am missing pieces of the puzzle. Do they have any drawbacks that explain the apparent lack of breeding activity with them?
Very curious to understand these things better.

You should also probably notice that Golden Angel, the only listed mate to a successful use of HdB, is a fertile triploid, so Muriel Humenick could easily not be a straight half and half cross. Others may have succeeded in breeding stripes from Brabant, but to date, the ONLY documented source of heritable stripes is Ferdinand Pichard. I can’t attest to how offspring from Brabant may perform as I’ve not raised any. I tried Brabant twice and found it quickly became an ENORMOUS mountain of milder and rust in my climate and it flowered so little for the plant size, it wasn’t worth the room and water.

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Thank you @roseseek! I’m sorry to hear the HdB seedlings were so sick. Rust hasn’t been a problem here but I definitely will keep an eye out for mildew.
Unfortunately the older posts on this forum show up as "Anonymous " so I can’t tell who posted it, but one of the mentions of seedlings inheriting stripes from them was here:

(I hope that link works!)
Unfortunately, I have no idea who that was, and they didn’t provide any further details.

Yes, that is a “claim”, but still, the ONLY “documented” striping source remains Ferdinand Pichard. Mr. Moore selected that rose for exploration because, as he told me, it was the only striped rose which was not listed as a mutation of a solid variety. He felt it offered the greatest potential for actually being a seedling and having transmissible striping. It took many seedlings and a lot of selection, but he proved his hypothesis.

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Thank you so much @roseseek . I will keep my stripe expectations low, especially considering how few germinations there have been. If the seedlings can only be healthy and survive the summer spidermite attacks, that will be good enough for me.
As an aside: how wonderful it is that you had the connection with Ralph Moore. I feel like his contributions aren’t valued enough here in Europe where among the general public his work is hardly known at all, when his roses could have been so successful here, especially his minis with the many container gardeners in our small urban gardens. The more I read about his work and the more I grow to admire it. You were very lucky to get his insight directly, and I am very lucky that you share yours here.

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Thank you. Many of us were fortunate that Mr. Moore generously shared his observations and discoveries with us, knowing he was “planting seeds” and the only way his knowledge would survive him was to share it and hope we would build upon it and share his and ours. You have to share to not only keep it alive but help yourself remember it. If you don’t pass it along, you forget.

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Kim, can you say how persistent or reliable CB is at passing along stripes? I already have him in my garden, and not much room to raise a thousand seedlings, but if you told me 1 in 10 might have some striping…then I might be tempted to try. Thanks.

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Sorry, Lee, I can’t as I’ve not raised seedlings from it, nor have I read any results claimed to have originated from it. Bourbons, in general, HATED the climates I tried growing them in, so why would I waste my time and energies on trying to breed from them?

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Kinda hoping Ralph might have passed along one of his secrets to you :slightly_smiling_face: Thanks all the same.

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The only thing he ever released from its pollen was Muriel Humenick and, as I previously wrote, that’s likely to be a really odd combination due to the triploid Golden Angel seed parent. Mr. Moore would pimp pollen all over the place and he raised millions of seedlings. There were houses FULL of really nasty stuff… terrible architecture; terrible foliage; huge, rangy monsters, most of which seldom, if ever, flowered and when they did, they were nothing to be excited over. He would hang on to stuff like that to see if there was anything of worth in them. I don’t know if Muriel Humenick was the best he obtained from the cross, or the ONLY thing he obtained from it. I do think it speaks volumes of the line to observe the ONLY descendant from CB is its sport HdB and the ONLY descendant from CdB is MH. Golden Angel does some rather remarkable things, as do Torch of Liberty (GA X Orangeade) and Lynnie (TOL X Basye’s Legacy), and they are also fertile triploids.

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I could not find any crosses with CB or the parentage.

This is what I found for DdB:

Mme Scipion Cochet, Anna Oliver x DdB, 1872 T
Mme Joseph Swartz, aka White DdB, sport, 1880T
Souv de Victor Hugo, DdB x Regulus, 1886T
Comtesse Riza du Parc, 1876 seedling.

Steve

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BTW, Singer in 1885 says CB is the same as Panachee d’Angers. :slight_smile: Steve

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Thank you for the information about CB potentially being Panachée d’Angers Steve!
Regarding your other post, Honorine de Brabant and Duchesse de Brabant are two different roses. Duchesse is not striped.

I am confused about another rose: Variegata di Bologna. She seems to pass on stripes too since HMF records several striped offspring for her. Is Variegata descended from Commandant Beaurepaire too? According to the dates on HMF, Variegata seems to have been bred before Commandant. Is this inaccurate? Do they share a common ancestor?

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If you look at the Comments section of HMF, an early record of the parentage of ‘Variegata di Bologna’ is revealed–it is a seedling from a cross between an unknown rose and a striped rose (‘Pride of Reigate’) that arose as a sport of another, unstriped variety descended from ‘Victor Verdier’. It is possible to get striped seedlings from breeding with ‘Variegata di Bologna’ (maybe not all that productively), but it didn’t cooperate when I tried pollinating it. You have to dig deep for the anthers, but they have a fair amount of pollen. For the trouble of dismantling those beautiful, fragrant blossoms, the petals do make wonderfully scented striped potpourri as they dry.

Stefan

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