I think it’s interesting when there is no picture of the seed parent from a cross. I don’t care how many bags are used, if a dominate trait is present then only the seed parent gives an indication of sucess. Case in point, I doubt 99% listed as decendants of Mr Lincoln are true. Neil
Neil,
I’m not sure I understand what you mean. If a dominant trait is present in the seed parent, then there is the possibility that the seed parent also carries the corresponding recessive.
Which characteristic of ‘Mister Lincoln’ makes you think it has not been seed parent to so many alleged offspring?
Karl
Maybe I missed something but the only F1 from seed of Mr Lincoln that had a picture was rather spindly which matches what I have seen from my seedlings of ML, OP, which I like to first see what they can do on their own. Some of these large achenes like ML have real small seeds and have barriers to ever getting out of the achenes.
Other listings on HMF show a decendant from pollen that only looks like the seed parent.
I made a cross of Octoberfest x Joycie and their’s no doubt it’s a cross. So I have my doubts on what’s listed. Neil
One thing is to keep in mind the time period. Some crosses they just guessed at the parentage at the time. It was also common practice at time if a seedling was used say Mr Lincoln x whatever they would commonly drop the parentage to the more sellable roses. This happened alot to Peace.
But overal I think these parentages are probably right based on a couple things. One it is common to take a picture of a plant when it is looking great not when it looks like hell. Two many of these crosses where done by big breeding nurseries so they planted thousand apon thousand of seeds. With those types of numbers with most plants you will get something better then the norm. Lastly they propabably sprayed more than you do just to keep things alive. And last but most importantly you are probably looking at pictures of budded plants and most likely if like most of us none of your seedlings are budded.
I do know what you mean on Mr. Lincoln however. I gotten some nice flowers but I have yet to see a good plant from it.
I haven’t raised seedlings from ‘Mister Lincoln’, but I’m still surprised that it does not produce strong offspring. It’s siblings, ‘Papa Meilland’ and ‘Oklahoma’ are also strong growing. Could their strength be merely hybrid vigor? It would be interesting to see if the cross Chrysler Imperial x Charles Mallerin would produce more fine offspring, perhaps one with the stiff “necks” of ‘Mister Lincoln’, the very vigorous bush of ‘Oklahoma’, and the velvety crimson of ‘Papa Meilland’.
‘Uncle Joe’ (Toro) - [(Mirandy x Charles Mallerin) x Seedling] - is another variety of similar breeding that might contribute increased flower size, if the other parent is a bit deficient.
Don’t get me wrong, I value the info on HMF but a person could be led astray. There is something inherently wrong with the achenes of ML so for the first time I’ll use some pollen from something that has good germination and vigorous offspring, not a red. Neil
People can be, and are “led astray” all the time. Read Modern Roses. At least on HMF there are living color images, references and comments which help straighten out some of the confusion. In print, Grey Pearl is “chocolate, olive, saffron and tan”. In glowing color, it’s lavender. There’s nothing you can do about deliberate misrepresentation or honest mistakes.
One thing to note is powdery mildew is an issue for me. So dark red cultivars like Mr Lincoln tend to not be as healthy here as they would be elsewhere.
I always get a lot of PM on the seedlings and it stalls them for a month or more but what is important to me is if they can come out of it because seldom do the adult plants have it. Of course the seedlings that don’t get PM keep on growing and I know several groupes of the current crop are going to be subject to BS. What surprises me is that some cuttings I received are so clean of PM & BS. Rare around here.
Neil
Getting back to HMF, I seen a yellow sport with a green hip on Elizabeth Of Glamis today. This is no big deal with this plant since there are seven listed but only one has a photo. I could take a photo tomarrow and post it on HMF but evidently you need to be vetted to make that type of post along with anything on decendants. I could make entries for at least half a dozen roses that show no or few decendants especially from the seed parent. Asking for how to on HMF resulted in nothing. If this takes a long drawn out process I’ll just just forget it.
Neil
Neil, all you have to do to be able to upload photos is to register. If you haven’t already registered, at the top right of any HMF page, you will see two red clickable tabs. One is “Log In”, the one to the right of that tab is “Register”. You may register as yourself or make it as anonymous as you desire. There is no charge for registering, but becoming a Premium Member for a whole $24 per rolling calendar year affords you the ability to research the parentage database. Something you can really make use of.
If you’ve already registered, all you should need to do is log into the site. That will unlock the photo upload ability and you can begin posting the photos you wish.
Other than this, I can’t think of any “vetting” you would need to upload photos. Does that help?
Kim,
I can upload to my account or to like photos of First Kiss but there is no place to upload for the decendants or sports that I see.
Neil
For which roses in particular, Neil? I’m browsing the first generation descendants of Elizabeth of Glamis and all I’ve looked at which had no photos already posted, permitted uploading of photos. Even if the photo tab isn’t dark, indicating there are existing photos, you can still click on it and it will open the photo area, which should include an “Upload Photo” tab.
Try adding to decendants of First Kiss or hit the sport tab for Elizabeth of Glamis, I can add nothing to either.
Neil
If people were able to add ‘sports’ as they appear there would be many listings on HMF where sporting has not even occurred and the integrity of the HMF records would be compromised. For a sport to be recognised it needs to be stable and able to be propagated and be sufficiently different to the original variety to warrant a separate classification. Characteristics such as the expression of rose colour can vary in response to factors such as climate, nutrition, disease, and even season but they are not due to permanent genetic change (mutations) occurring. If you think you have a colour sport you need to try and remove buds/cuttings to propagate them and see if future flowers are the same, preferably in more than one location to rule out the effect of local climate pressures, or allow the stem with the different flower to keep growing to see if it is a repeatable event. HMF must only accept requests to add sports from registered sports and to register a sport you need to be able to demonstrate its stability. It may be useful to add the photo of the yellow flower on your ‘Elizabeth of Glamis’ (EoG) to the EoG listing to demonstrate there may be a range of colour expressions or that it is likely to sport. If it is stable consider whether it should be registered to officially recognise it as a sport.
On another note, you breed roses and raise seedlings which are unique and you may one day decide to register one or more of your seedlings. As such you can contact the HMF support team ( support@helpmefind.com ) and request to be listed as a breeder so that you may make entries for your own seedlings as you see fit. It is most useful for breeders to list seedlings they see as being significant for other breeders and future rose historians. I would recommend that you contact the HMF staff via this email address. They have always been more than happy to help with any issue that I’ve ever needed assistance with. Being listed as a breeder also allows you to add discovered or found roses as well, however, one should carefully consider listing found roses or discovered roses (such as sports) to ensure multiple entries are not created for the same rose or entries are not created for ‘sports’ that are not stable… or even sports. ‘Sports’ should only be listed separately if registered. The following flowers came from the same seedling:
and
They clearly show how there can be seasonal differences in flowers that are not permanent sports.
It is not only in the far past that at least one hybridizer “fudged” the parentage (unless you feel that because of my age, I am part of the “far past”). I was seated at a National ARS banquet with a “famous” hybridizer who had had too much to drink. When I said something about the difficulty of the crosses he obtained, he explained that the parents were made up for commercial reasons. I think that I read a similar comment in one of the British Rose Annuals (I gave mine away).
I just thought it would usefull to show a photo of the sport since most entries do not have one.
As far as decendant listings, this is a chatch-22. I just saw a listing of 16 breed roses, registered with names and only two photos. It’s a trap.
Neil
Adding a plant to the database, not photos for an existing plant, but ADDING a new plant to the database, requires approval from the HMF Administrator. It isn’t open to all site users for many reasons, including those stated above. If you have a sport you feel worthy of inclusion, you may send the information to HMF, or you may contact them through the system to request that permission. If you have a promising seedling you wish added, you may permit them to add it, or contact them for a Breeder Listing which permits you to add your seedlings to the database, creating pages for them.
You can imagine the potential problems associated with permitting anyone to add any new plant they wish to the database. Lyn G. has spent countless hours cleaning up and fixing these kinds of entries made in the years prior to restricting new plant additions. There are ways of accomplishing it, they simply wish to make sure the person doing it is discriminating and is only going to add things appropriately to maintain the integrity of the database.
But, for existing rose pages, you should be able to upload photos easily as long as you are registered, you’ve signed in to your membership and the images aren’t too large. If you resize the images (or take the original photo) at 300 dpi, and your upload speed is sufficient, you shouldn’t have any issues uploading images to existing pages.
[quote=Neil]
I just thought it would usefull to show a photo of the sport since most entries do not have one.
As far as decendant listings, this is a chatch-22. I just saw a listing of 16 breed roses, registered with names and only two photos. It’s a trap.
Neil[/quote]
Neil, I’m not really sure what you mean. By “breed roses” do you mean descendants?
If so, descendants of which rose? Elizabeth of Glamis has a lot more than 16 descendants listed, and First Kiss has only one listed (a sport, incidentally).
And how is it a trap if there are no pictures given?
In the case of White Sugar, the sport of First Kiss, it is possible that this person is withholding the picture to avoid causing problems in patenting the rose. Or maybe the rose is not on the market (as below). You might try to get in touch with Linda Guy if you want to see a picture. Maybe she will share a picture. Chances are it looks just like First Kiss, except it’s white.
In other instances, people may register roses without marketing them–and then who is going to supply pictures if the originator doesn’t?
If you will give specifics about which rose or roses you are having problems with, maybe we can help.
Peter
Neil,
White Sugar is sold by K and M Roses. Maybe the nursery will have a picture that is not posted on its web site.
Peter