Henry Kelsey, Henery Hudson, and Magnifica (the rugosa). After talking to people about different disease resistant roses I was wondering if anybody has used this to a large extent especially with crosses involving very dissimilar roses. I know magnifica has a few crosses out their some like magseed are suppose to be fertile but is this common or a very rare thing?
I tried to use ‘Henry Kelsey’, but since it routinely dies back here in MN more than the other Canadian Explorers and gets a lot of black spot I have eventually avoided it. Bill Radler’s ‘Ramblin’ Red’ is a nice rose bred from it with similar hardiness, but nicer flower quality and better disease resistance. HK does set seeds relatively well and germinates okay. I haven’t used Henry Hudson much as a parent. I have some op seedlings of it. The nice pink blush to the outer petals can get carried on and even intensified in some of the seedlings. I don’t know how well it crosses with non-rugosas. I’m really excited that some seedlings of ‘Apart’ x R. primula finally started blooming the past two years. Last year was very minimal and this year there were more blooms. They were single and yellow, but the rugosa influence was definately there as well. There seems to be some op hips forming. I hope there will be some viable seeds. I wasn’t thinking they would be very fertile and mass pollinted the flowers with some rugosa pollen. Hopefully there will be some viable seedlings.
One rose that is especially nice is Bill Radler’s ‘Morning Magic’. It has some rugosa in it (new source, not just the kordesii line) and is very healthy and seems very fertile. I suspect it is tetraploid. I think I confirmed it, but my notes aren’t handy now. The soft hips at maturity and a few other minor things suggests its slight rugosa ancestry. It is SO healthy, floriferous, and beautiful!! It has been relatively crown hardy here as well with live wood about 6" or so above the soil line.
Take Care,
David
Was it you David that was able to get william baffin seed to germinate or was it Henry? If so how did you manage that.
I was able to get William Baffin seeds to germinate. I used my normal procedure of enzyme treatment, then red light exposure.
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/new%20germination%20method.htm
Link: home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/new%20germination%20method.htm
I can only say that I am trying Henry Hudson this year. Henry Hudson X Rainbow Sorbet, I’m hoping that I will get some seedlings from it. If you try it we can compare notes.
I used Henry Kelsey on Belle de Crecy & that seedling has resulted in a very, very thorny shrub with a very fat bud that is set to bloom soon. I find that the hardiest seedlings from HK are the thorniest. I wouldn’t use it for that reason alone. HK’s neighbour is R. pendulina. I have an op seedling from R pendulina from what I suspect is HK pollen. That one should be blooming very soon. Again it looks like it would be a very double bloom.
The only rose I have is William Baffin of the group I mentioned. I am trying to find rugosa that would work with non rugosa crossed to them. I am also trying to find disease resistant winter hardy kordes hybrids that might also work. So Sharon I will not have anything to share this year.
I am probably going to get Carefree Beauty next year in breeding for these two purposes. But I am definitely going to try to get a kordesii hybrid of some sort. I am not completely sold yet on using a rugosa in my work but the more I read about Simon and Paul work on their blogs the more I want to try one. Paul is using Magseed and Simon is trying out Ann Endt and Scabrosa. Perhaps I will go with Scabrosa.
Adam,
Many Rugosa cultivars “work with non rugosa crossed to them.” Try to define your breeding goal better to determine what Rugosas you want to use as a pistillate parent. I trust you are also aware when you hybridize Rugosa cultivars with other types of roses, disease resistance is generally lost. An exception is when Rugosas are crossed with Rosa wichurana.
“I am also trying to find disease resistant winter hardy kordes hybrids that might also work.” Work in what respect? If you want an excellent Rosa kordesii cultivar to use as a staminate parent, there is no better one than ‘John Davis’.
Since John Davis is almost always in bloom, when I have a tetraploid mother that is in bloom and I do not have any prepared pollen to use; I often simply break off a John Davis flower, remove the petals, and place upside down on the “mother”. John Davis is held in the correct position by my use of a 2 inch by 2 inch clear plastic zip lock bag with the upper corners cut off. Most of the time crosses of this type are successful.
See, for example:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/this_is_a_george_vancouver_x_joh.htm
Link: home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/this_is_a_george_vancouver_x_joh.htm
David,
You mentioned Morning Magic. Do you know if Brite Eyes has rugosa heritage as well? I don’t grow it anymore, but I remember thinking it must have rugosa in its heritage somewhere. The foliage just had that look.
Shane
HI Shane,
That’s a great question. I’m not exactly sure, but I think no. ‘Brite Eyes’ has the same female parent as ‘Rainbow Knock Out’ and its dad is ‘Abraham Darby’. ‘Morning Magic’ is much more cold hardy here than BE and the rugosa influence is interesting in the hip softness especially.
I love the Kordesii types, but am so glad here is a new fertile rugosa line as well as Paul Barden’s Joyseed.
Many Kordesii types, especially some Explorers, have been so susceptible to cercospora leaf spot that they defoliate like it was blackspot (like L83). I don’t know where that came in from as ‘Max Graf’ is really good here. My suspicion is that perhaps it came through in R. kordesii’s other parent. It is clearly not a self of ‘Max Graf’ as double flowers are dominant and R. kordesii has more than 5 petals. Perhaps susceptibility came in through that other potential parent?? I don’t know. I think the Kordesii line has value and there is variability among the Explorers for susceptibility to cer. leaf spot. It is just a disease that builds in older established gardens here and something that has been more problematic for me as time goes by. So far ‘Morning Magic’ is holding up well to it.
Sincerely,
David
My main goal is to breed some good breeding stock at this point. I want my breeding stock to contain the genes that will allow for winter hardiness, disease resistance, continuous bloom, drought resistance, good fall leaf color and mostly in mauves and dark purples. Overall I want bullet proof plants in most areas.
I am using mostly miniatures and floribundas for the repeat bloom and for a lot of the mauve and purple colors. My main purpose is to cross these miniatures and floribundas both ways onto the hardier roses and then select the better ones and use these as a foundation stock. Mostly crossing these seedlings together. I can test for winter hardiness here we are a low 5 or mid 4 depending who you ask. I can also test for powdery mildew which I tend to get bad. I can also test for drought resistance most things here receive some drought stress all the time. Except for this year which has been extremely wet for us. I almost never see blackspot or rust. So I would like the possibility of blackspot resistant to be their but I can not test for it. The good fall color is a minor goal.
I do not think color of these roses are that important because I do not plain on getting the colors I want the first generation. I plain on doing more crosses from the seedlings then from named varieties after four or six years. Ideally I want my foundation stock to contain a mix like (Miniature x HardyDiseaseResistant) x (Floribunda x HardyDiseaseRes) or [(minature x species) x HardydiseaseResistant] or [(rugosa x Species) x (Miniature x DiseaseResistant)] or some kind of other similar mixture. I may also cross the first generation (Miniature x HardyDieaseRes) back to a HardyDiseaseResistant cultivar to get a double dose. The Hardy Disease resistant Varieties I want to double up on two different sides of the cross or use something very similar. The miniatures, or floribundas I do not want to double up on both sides but use two different ones.
In terms of ultimate goal a plant that has the form of Baby Love or the Fairy would be nice. Not to big for most gardens yet big enough. Also cluster flowers are preferred over single blooms just my personal preference. It has to take drought and powdery mildew. Ideally having the genes for blackspot but I will never now for sure. A fragrant mauve would be nice but not absolutely necessary. If I get a nice orange or extra I would be fine with that. To sum it all up a plant my sister could grow would be the goal. My sister likes to kill things.
I am also planning to do similar work with fragrant foliage. These I figure will mostly be based on Applejack, fragrant species and I think this is where the rugosas would mostly come in. But right now my apple jack is still small about a foot or so tall. So this program will wait a while. Especially since I won’t have the room for it this year. But we should be getting a house soon with more room.
I forgot to mention this. But the way I figure it plant health, hardiness and repeat bloom are the hardiest things to breed for, so this is what I want to start with. I think in the long run this will make things a little bit easier. Color, fragrance and form can come next!
“My main goal is to breed some good breeding stock at this point.”
This is potentially the most intelligent thing you can do at this stage of your work. In fact, any any stage of your work it is critical to identify and use plants from your seedlings that can forward your goals. Often, bloom color, bloom form and other of the “minor details” will be missing, but the plant itself has something meaningful to offer. This is likely why you see newer Austin rose parentage listed as “seedling X seedling” now.
I want my breeding stock to contain the genes that will allow for winter hardiness, disease resistance, continuous bloom, drought resistance, good fall leaf color and mostly in mauves and dark purples."
I strongly recommend L83, even though, as David states, it can breed in a susceptibility to Cercospora. I don’t see that happening on my Explorer roses more than any other strains, so its possibly a regional thing. L83 is capable of breeding very double, richly colored, large blooms on very vigorous plants. You can select the best of these for fertility and overall health and leave L83 behind as soon as possible to get rid of the Cercospora problem. I bet with so many selections of selfings, this nasty flaw has been amplified, which is why its likely wise to get past L83 as soon as you can.
The native North American species surely have much top contribute in terms of drought resistance and hardiness. Don’t overlook these. Do you have access to 'Commander Gillette"? Its half R. carolina’, has genes for Blackspot resistance, hardiness, fragrance and attractive shrub habit. You might also consider going all the way back to ‘Suzanne’, the Spinosissima hybrid.
As you likely know, I made a cross of a proprietary red seedling I have had for a decade and L83 and much to my surprise, about 40% of these were either deep crimson or fire engine red and most were large(ish) and fully double.
I am using mostly miniatures and floribundas for the repeat bloom and for a lot of the mauve and purple colors. My main purpose is to cross these miniatures and floribundas both ways onto the hardier roses and then select the better ones and use these as a foundation stock.
Also very smart. Miniatures will bring you a higher percentage of very free flowering seedlings than most Floribundas will, IMO, but it depends on the cultivars you select. Have you considered ‘Blue Mist’? I have never seen a tougher plant that blooms more than this does. Yes, its fully fertile.
“The good fall color is a minor goal.”
Rugosas can give you that. So can the “Basye Probable Amphidiploid”. One of my F2 seedlings from it has the most amazing brilliant flame colored Fall foliage. See link below.
“I do not think color of these roses are that important because I do not plain on getting the colors I want the first generation.”
That’s the Moore concept of “make the plant first, then hang the flowers on it” It has served Ralph, and many of his students well.
“Ideally having the genes for blackspot but I will never now for sure. A fragrant mauve would be nice but not absolutely necessary.”
There is evidence that suggests that (in modern hybrids, at least) that there is a genetic link between fragrance and Blackspot susceptibility. I’m inclined to forgo scent in favor of heath and vigor, but thats just my choice.
“To sum it all up a plant my sister could grow would be the goal. My sister likes to kill things.”
To create a truly carefree race of landscape friendly roses that need only be planted and watered occasionally is surely a necessity if roses are to survive as “user friendly” shrubs of the future.
“I am also planning to do similar work with fragrant foliage. These I figure will mostly be based on Applejack, fragrant species and I think this is where the rugosas would mostly come in.”
Ahh, interesting. Are you familiar with Kim Rupert’s R. fedtschenkoana hybrids? They can generate scented foliage in their offspring and remontancy as well. I have one of Kim’s fertile hybrids and I think he is OK with me sharing suckers of it. On the West coast, our R. nutkana often has strongly Pine scented foliage and I know for a fact that this trait is frequently passed on to offspring. Thats another path to consider.
I have one other suggestion, Adam, but for that I must contact you in private. Watch for an email.
Paul B.
Sorry, image link fixed:
Kim Rupert hybrids look interesting. I especially like the small foliage of the one cross on help me find. The overall plant looks like a rambler reminiscent of a sweet briar. But it is kind of hard to tell from the pictures.
Update: All of my Henry Hudson X Rainbow Sorbet hips fell off in a very short period as did the Henry Hudson X Carmen (hybrid rugosa). I also used HH pollen on a seedling of mine in which the hips swelled and fell off also. This seedling has other hips from other pollen parents that are still ripening, only the HH pollinated hips aborted. The parents of the seedling are unknown red rose X Goldmoss. The unknown red was bought as Rose du Roi. I will try HH with something else next year and hope for better results.
Adam, I hope that your results with HH are better.
Anyone have suggestions on what I should use with HH?
“Anyone have suggestions on what I should use with Henry Hudson?”
A good place to start would be the ‘Charles Albanel’ thread below. More specifically I was thinking it would be fun to play with ‘Dart’s Dash’. With HH being diploid, personally I would try it against Robin Hood (although I doubt RH and rugosa will marry easily if at all). Along the same veins as Iceberg, Virgo would be fun to try against it because she DOES seem amenable to wide crosses.
http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=22312&rc=14&ui=1779865127
In my experience ‘Henry Hudson’ for the most part does not set hips. The gardens at our local bookstore contain many rugosa and shrub roses, including a 25 foot hedge of HH. In any given year from many thousands of blooms I would find maybe a half dozen OP hips.
Suzanne Verrier in her book on rugosas also notes that HH doesn’t set hips.
Getting hips from planned crosses with HH would be a long shot, but I guess not impossible. Good luck.
While I have developed one cultivar using ‘Henry Hudson’ (it was a self pollinated seedling), I wouldn’t go back to using it in a breeding program. For a brief time, I used ‘Henry Hudson’ as a staminate parent but the seedlings didn’t impress me. I discarded them before they flowered. I now work a lot with ‘Schneezwerg’, using it as the pistillate parent. Its track record for producing high quality Rugosa hybrids, especially ‘Jens Munk’, speaks for itself.