Has anyone used the florabunda known as ‘Goldmarie’, ‘Goldmarie 82’ or ‘Goldmarie 84’; not to be confused with an older plant known as ‘Goldmarie’ also released by Koerdes in 1958.
I have read several sorces that state it is healthy. I was wondering what the real world experiance of it is and if it is a good parent.
Thanks,
Paul
I don’t know Goldmarie, but another yellow Kordes rose that may be of interest to you is Gelber Engel. It is a recent introduction (2002) and won the ADR award in 2004. It has very shiny foliage. I have other Kordes roses with such foliage and they are very disease resistant (like Aprikola).
Rob
On a 0-3 scale with 3 as resistant; Kordess catalog Goldmarie rating is 2 for powdery mildew and 1 for blackspot. Without sprays it sulked for me.
Gelber Engel notes are 2 and 3. Here french Riviera it is a large, strong very desease tolerant and quite recurent plant with abundant OP hips.
Aprikola with a 3 + 3 rating is not resistant to blackspot and sulks here.
You’re right Rob, I should be looking at more recent introductions than one that is 25 years old. I suspect that any recent introduction by Kordes would be quite healthy because, if my memory serves me, they quit spraying their plants in the early 90’s. So this sounds more promising.
Thanks,
Paul
Thanks Pierre,
This is just what I was looking for. I found a supplier that sells both ‘Gelber Engel’ and ‘Aprikola’. They both look like very good roses and I might try them both. Even though ‘Apikola’ doesn’t do well in the French Riviera, it sounds like it does well elsewhere and it might do well here also. So I might give it a try.
Paul
Pierre, that’s interesting. Aprikola is one of my most disease resistant roses: it doesn’t get one spot in an entire season and I never spray it. Maybe the south of France has another strain of BS to which Aprikola is not resistant. Or maybe it’s just differences in climate.
Good to hear about your experiences with Gelber Engel, I think I’m going to order it one time. Did you use it as a seed parent too? Or tried to germinate OP seeds?
Rob
As well as a northern one, there is a southern frontier for our roses. They thrive in spring weather, as long as it is cool and are desease ridden when hot weather come.
Except in semi desertic areas. That is places surrounded with walls, stones, gravel or asphalt. If dry and hot enough and with part shade florist roses with strong petals are best.
I tried Aprikola twice 2002 and 2005 when discovering its Kordes rating. Both plants are just surviving rather defoliated most summer. There are different Black Spot strains with varied temperature optimums and virulence. Here Baby Love, Flower Carpet and Pretty Lady do spot as well as knock Out.
I did not use Gelber Engel nor sowed OP seeds as many Kordes large shrubs are (suspected?) triploids. Also this is a light and fading yellow here. Too large, too light here and probable triploid…
“Pierre, that’s interesting. Aprikola is one of my most disease resistant roses: it doesn’t get one spot in an entire season and I never spray it. Maybe the south of France has another strain of BS to which Aprikola is not resistant. Or maybe it’s just differences in climate.”
Where I live (Portland Metro) blackspot is notorisous, but from what I know, roses in other blackspot havens, say Ohio for example, do not always have comparable blackspot-prone rose cultivars.
But there does seem to be places like where Pierre lives that is extreme even for the Portland Metro. Although ideal to breed resistance for all roses, I find it too idealic and constraining of creativity to try to match such ideals. It would be analagous for someone like me in my area to try to breed for zone 3 hardiness. It would be pointless for me to even care. and so on…
Jadae
You wrote: “too idealic and constraining of creativity to try to match such ideals”.
I do not think so. Given a favorable location some OGR are quite performing here: Banksiaes, Teas, Chinas, Noisettes, ramblers and many species. Sure here without greenhouse nor sprays breeding for exhibition Ht flowered roses is a very long term entreprise. So I will not constrain my creativity to this model.
Oppositely it is an ideal place to breed for resistance exploring out of beaten pathes. And there are a lot.
Resistance that will be welcome for everyone. More and more people want no spray roses. More and more chemcals will be banned for amateur use.
And in any climate roses are exposed to unusual climatic combinations. Not speaking of global warming…
I.e.: I have a friend with a small specialized containered rose nursery that was desease ravaged after an early spring two week long rainy spell that made spraying unefficient. Most his yearly sales were lost with every rose defoliated just before main spring flowering. A not so rare event.
I got some quite performing plants with a nice unpruned architecture that just need a more marketable flower. As a recent century old breeder told it somehow: it is easier to put a nice flower on a good plant than the reverse.
“I got some quite performing plants with a nice unpruned architecture that just need a more marketable flower. As a recent century old breeder told it somehow: it is easier to put a nice flower on a good plant than the reverse.”
I already know that. I do agree with disease resistance (it’s an ethical concern with me via people with cancer, etc.) but I do not agree that it has to be done in such a fashion nor do I believe that disease resistant HT’s are wrong. Believe it or not, most people love to make arangements and want blooms to last 7+ days in their home because theyre busy and get little garden time. And also that what is good in the French Riviera may be a piece of crap in Portland, Oregon. There is just far too much multiplicity to be ignored and I think each indvidual has the right to breed whatever they feel like, and not towards any specific ideal. If they want to breed an HT, go ahead. If they want to breed an OGR, fine…etc. Why not? And why should there only be one goal?
Jadae, I have the same view on hybridizing as you. I also think Pierre has the same view. I do not believe we wrote anything to suggest that we want to tell you or others what goal they must set for themselves or how they must act to reach that goal. At least I didn’t intend to!
Anyway, if one focuses on disease resistance, and many here do, then one wants to know what roses are resistant and what not. That’s why I suggested to Paul to try Gelber Engel. And I didn’t say he shouldn’t try Goldmarie. I just don’t know anything about Goldmarie, so I can’t comment on that rose.
Pierre, what’s wrong with a triploid if it sets a lot of OP hips with fertile seeds? When you put tetraploid pollen on a fertile triploid you will get mostly tetraploid seedlings.
Rob
P.S. For disease resistant hybrid teas: the Kordes rose Eliza is described as being very resistant and I believe I read it has rugosa ancestry (not sure). I don’t have it so I don’t know how it performs in real life, but it would be interesting to look into. Unfortunately, it’s pink
English not being native for me there are obviously misunderstandings.
Who said that “disease resistant HT’s are wrong”???
Not me!
If I were asked that question I would say that all major teams (with numerous, educated and skilled staffs backed by scientific research programs some I personnaly met) are at it as first goal since tenths of years.
You know the actual results: the best desease resistant HT: Elina is from a marginal if a pro breeder: Dickson. The better desease resistant shrubs: Baby Love, Flower Carpet, Pretty Lady and Knock Out are from marginal breeders that were scarcely pros when introducing them.
I know there are other resistant vars and that there are progresses made or to be expected. Let me only say that, if considered are investment amounts and that most roses introduced are novelties, actual rose betterment is formidably inefficient.
As I am not a gambler I do not hope getting better results than the major players at Hts with millions of seedlings yearly nor do I wait for the unlikely lucky strike.
That is why I am all in favor of going out of beaten pathes and doing things the major are not at. Not unlike Ralph Moore does.
About: “what is good in the French Riviera may be a piece of crap in Portland, Oregon”.
It is an eventuality that cannot be presumed. Neither the reverse proposition. Nor any similar sentence.
Oppositely Meilland did and is breeding some nice roses here. Some outstanding in Oregon and worldwide. I.e.just to name one: Peace.
Do not take it personnaly: mostly I am only speculating.
We do not have to agree and have common ideas.
On the contrary I feel it is sound that we disagree. Only past is fact. Future is full of different potentialities a few of which only will materialize. We may guess at which but nobody knows.
I love friendly controverse.
Hi Rob
You wrote whyle I was writing.
“what’s wrong with a triploid if it sets a lot of OP hips with fertile seeds?”
I was thinking as you do untill I tried it.
If there are no other ways then nothing is wrong.
But if there are other ways I learned to ponder the following facts: Average “fertile” triploid set less hips with less seed that do not germinate as well as most tetraploids. Viable seedlings for each pollination ratio is very low. A few triploid have good germinating seeds. Golden Glow and New Dawn are triploids with many successfull progenies. I pollinated every flower of a large New Dawn to get a few dozen seedlings.
“When you put tetraploid pollen on a fertile triploid you will get mostly tetraploid seedlings.”
In my experience only a minority among seedlings from triploid x tetraploid are fully fertile (presumed tetraploids).
To sum up: less hips + less seeds + less germination + less fertile progenies.
My personal conclusion is to avoid whenever possible as it is not efficient.
That is why even if desease free yellows are scarce I did not use Gelber Engel. Years ago I used Lichtkonigin Lucia that is another large growing desease tolerant Kordess yellow rose (rating 3-2) and got all large growing seedlings. Made me suspicious.
Hmm Paul, sorry to hijack your thread, but you will probably be interested in the discussion about Kordes roses too.
Pierre, do you have Sunny Rose from Kordes? It is a pale yellow groundcover rose with small wichurana type foliage (small, many leaflets and highly glossy). I have it, but it was swamped by companion plants for 2 years, so I dug it up this winter and planted it in an open position. I hope to use its pollen.
Also, I think I would try to put the triploid pollen on a tetraploid seed parent, instead of the other way around as I wrote. That may increase hip and seed formation and germination too.
Do you use any of the Kordes miniatures to breed compact plants?
Rob
That
I have attempted to use Goldmarie 82 for a number of years now. I would put it as medium with respect to disease resistance–not great, but definitely not the worst. The blooms are a good medium gold and the plant blooms abundantly. I have always been fond of it. It crosses readily with many different types of roses and is female fertile, but I have difficulty getting much to germinate. It isn’t unusual for me to see germination occurring after 5 or 6 months, and what germination I see is not abundant. On the other hand, I have seen people on the forum successfully use roses that have not worked well for me and I would encourage others to give it a try. Female fertile gold roses do not come along every day. I have also tried Golden Holstein as a female and it crossed well with other roses, but I had even less germination with GH and it also took 5-6 months to occur. I have attempted to cross these two roses with hardy species roses and some of the Canadian Roses. Those of you whose hybridizing takes a bit different direction might have more luck.
Also, I might suggest that people give Julie Childs a try. I used it for the first time last summer. Disease resistance was excellent, it is female fertile, and seems receptive to many types of pollen. I am looking forward to seeing what germinates and I intend to use it a lot more this year.
What range of colors did you get with Julia Childs?
“My personal conclusion is to avoid whenever possible as it is not efficient”
Efficiency is obviously helpful but an amateur doesnt need to chrun out the numbers. That would be costly and timely. That is why the intro to the RHA states, “The Rose Hybridizers Association thus attempts to emphasize the “fun” aspect of rose hybridizing and to encourage in rosarians the adoption of this exciting new dimension in their rose-growing activities. The primary purpose of RHA is to make hybridizing information available to members and to provide materials and services which will aid them in their work.”
Which is exactly what I love to do, and aim for no specific goal other than to learn and enjoy making new roses from new and different ideas, but also ideas tried and true.
"About: “what is good in the French Riviera may be a piece of crap in Portland, Oregon”.
It is an eventuality that cannot be presumed. Neither the reverse proposition. Nor any similar sentence.
Oppositely Meilland did and is breeding some nice roses here. Some outstanding in Oregon and worldwide. I.e.just to name one: Peace. "
This is not true. I, in fact, avoid the majority of Meiland roses, because theyre often blackspot prone here. Peace is. Elle is. Marmalade Mist is… 90% of their mini’s are. I could go on. The only Meiland roses that I have currently set in the garden are 2 Romanticas, Carefree Marvel, White Drift and Cherry Meililand. Carefree Marvel and White Drift were bought for breeding since I have no desire to grow Rosa wichurana. They have cool foliage but if I wasnt a rosarian, I’d easily have a colorful shrub in the same spot. 5/250 roses is not very many at all–3/5 of the 5/250 total of them are average health here.
Speaking of Rosa wichurana, one of ther most blackspot prone shrubs ever here is Starry Night. It is a Rosa wichurana hybrid from France.
Jadae
I was not advocating Peace or other Meilland intros desease resistance. By the way it is interesting to note that it was initially much better than most.
Actually most public trials are spraied. A few have an unspraied shrub/ground cover roses section.
And you are right when you infer I am not only playing. I get a lot of pleasure also. I am a not so young horticulturist and aiming at someday get something that can be considered as a step forward. So I like to have some progenies large enough as desirable seedlings are a small percent.
I do not think it is wrong.
It is part of my goal. Not yours? Just fine! We all enjoy breeding roses our way! Many different ways with somethings we enjoy to share friendly.
For the major breeding teams “the market” is still with spraied HTs. All are yearly introducing vars that need spraying in most roses climates. Even Kordes does.
Paul,
“Average “fertile” triploid set less hips” implies that some can set as much hips as tetraploids. Then many hips are undersized and seeds are fewer and not uniform with many/most underdeveloped never germinating.
If there are no other ways and if happy with fewer seedlings then it is allright using triploids.
I know the paper you refer. Important is to note that many not normal gametes are produced. So if progenies from tetraploid mothers are more numerous and better germinating they are still not as good as average full tetraploid or diploid progenies.
Rob
Sunny Rose is quite pale probably little more than white opening with Riviera sun. As Jadae noted wichuraiana desease resistance is easily lost when unspraied as close to ground growth is much more succeptible. Low growing intros are disapointing here.
Another thing that applies also to Gelber Engel: I have enough smaller flowered species derived seedlings and would like to have larger flowered parents.
I grow Eliza: its rating was lowered in his last Kordes catalog and in my rose field it is better at PM and not at BS than Elina. Would like to know its pedigree! Like many recently introduced LC they are actual attempts at more resistant to desease and frost HT flowered roses. Rugelda and Delicia are suspectable parents…
"It is part of my goal. Not yours? Just fine! "
Exactly. So no more shoulds, please.
Yeah THE AARS is spliiting to no-spray landscape now, which is cool. However, I do believe that if you know youre area well as any good gardener or horticulturist does, one can grow HT,FL, LCl, and GR’s without spray. I no longer spray do to health ethics and I can help anyone in the area with what works and what does not.
Sorry to bust in here, I have a quick question for Jadae. I noticed you have Top Rose listed as one of the roses you have listed amung your new purchases.
I cant remember how I got there, but I ended up with Top Rose at the top of one of my lists. (Think I was traversing the Chinatown children tree).
Do you have any interesting information about Toprose, typical things like disease resistance and cold tolerance. Wondering how strong the yellow is and how it fades. THe pictures on HMF look great but sometimes people under expose thier pictures of yellows and they end up looking a little deeper than they really are. (The opposite happens too 
)
I ended up ordering it from Pickering because of the 3 rose minimum order thing. Wanted Williams Double Yellow and had to pick 2 others.